Predator Helios 500 PH517-51-75T7 - M.2 cloning / OS migration / uninstallable NVMe driver questions

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SGLtech
SGLtech Member Posts: 6

Tinkerer

edited November 2023 in 2019 Archives

My Predator Helios 500 PH517-51-75T7 came with Windows 10 Home preinstalled on a SK Hynix 256 GB SATA M.2 SSD HFS256G39TND-N210A located in M.2 slot 2. M.2 slot 1 came empty.

I just purchased a Samsung V-NAND SSD 970 EVOPlus NVMe M.2 drive and installed it in M.2 slot 1.

The performance of the Samsung is very impressive.  Samsung Magician reports:

Samsung Magician Benchmarks

Hynix SSD

970EVOPlus

factor

Sequential Read (MB/s):

561

3491

(6.2x)

Sequential Write (MB/s):

269

3168

(11.8x)

Random Read (IOPS):

64453

116455

(11.8x)

Random Write (IOPS):

57373

102294

(1.8x)


I’m considering how (or if) to move my OS over to the new SSD for faster performance, however, I’m gobsmacked with the number of issues that has come up, so I’m documenting what has happened to me with some questions along the way.


Samsung makes SSD Data Migration software v.3.1 available from https://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/minisite/ssd/download/tools/

My first observation about Samsung SSD Data Migration software v.3.1 is that it is pretty much plug-and-play, offers no configurability, and only seems to cater for the situation where a source disk gets replaced by a target disk. I’m not sure how appropriately it handles computers with dual M.2 slots like the Predator Helios 500.  I’m concerned about the potential for data corruption resulting from duplicate volumes being accessible simultaneously because I’ve had this issue with Windows in the past after cloning an OS. Would I need to connect the source SSD to another PC (with a USB M.2 adapter) immediately after cloning to remove the partitions before I can put it back in the PH500?


The Samsung SSD Data Migration software v.3.1 also has some documented limitations:

From “Samsung_SSD_Data_Migration_User_Manual_ENG_v.3.1.pdf”:

“5. The OEM Recovery partition created by the computer manufacturer as a factory setting will not be cloned. However, it will be automatically cloned if the manufacturer is Samsung and SRS (Samsung Recovery Solution) 5, SRS 6, or SRS 7 is installed. (Versions lower than SRS 5 are not supported.)”

Here is an image of diskmgmt.msc showing original SSD with recovery partition and new SSD:

I’m not sure what to think about sacrificing the recovery partition.  It’s there for a reason, isn't it? It comes pre-configured with all the ACER drivers I need.  While it’s possible to recover/reinstall Windows 10 from generic Windows boot media, it won’t have all the manufacturer’s drivers preinstalled, so generic Windows installations might require a lot more work mucking around…?  I’ll assume this is not a deal-breaker for the moment.


Also from “Samsung_SSD_Data_Migration_User_Manual_ENG_v.3.1.pdf”:

“16. Please note if you use a Samsung NVMe SSD as the Target Disk without installing the Samsung NVMe Driver, this software may not function properly.”

*may not* ???  I could really use some help interpreting this because I’ve found this driver impossible to install, and I’m not sure of the consequences...

The driver properties in devmgmt.msc doesn’t mention anything about ‘NVMe’.

It reports driver v16.0.9.1101 dated 2018-04-19, and clicking update driver doesn’t find anything newer.


Samsung does provide a NVMe driver “Samsung_NVM_Express_Driver_3.2.exe” downloadable from https://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/minisite/ssd/download/tools/, however, trying to install this fails, saying “Samsung NVM Express Device is not connected.  Connect the Device and try again”:

The installation manual for the NVMe driver has a few clues as to why...


From “Samsung_NVMeDriver_InstallationGuide.pdf”:

“This NVMe driver requires UEFI Bios v2.3.”

According to msinfo32, the Predator PH517-51 has BIOS Version/Date: Insyde Corp. V1.16, 2018-10-24.

According to ACER’s website. V1.16 is the latest available version of the BIOS.

So, I’m not sure if this is an issue and if it is something that can be addressed, or if it’s comparing apples with oranges.  How do I find out if the PH517-51 meets this ‘UEFI BIOS v2.3’ requirement?


Also from “Samsung_NVMeDriver_InstallationGuide.pdf”:

“Windows Operating System cannot load the driver under following BIOS configurations where [Intel’s Platform Controller Hub (PCH)] Storage Configuration is set to “Raid Mode” ”

The factory default setting for the Predator PH517-51 is with RAID mode enabled, which is peculiar because the OS is preinstalled on a single SATA M.2 drive that isn’t a part of a RAID array, and it appears to be interfering with the NVMe driver installation.  

I have no desire to RAID my two M.2 drives, so I tried turning it off in my BIOS by changing SATA mode from “RST Premium with Optane” to “AHCI”.  This resulted in 20 minutes of rebooting and troubleshooting with messages such as “Diagnosing your PC”, “Checking disk for errors. This might take over an hour.”, “Attempting repairs” all to no avail. So I had to go back into my BIOS to revert SATA mode to “RST Premium with Optane” from “AHCI”.

  


So it seems like I’m in a ‘chicken and egg’ scenario:  Windows requires the NVMe driver to be installed before switching BIOS to AHCI mode or it won’t boot, and Samsung NVMe driver installer requires the device to be recognisable as a NVMe device (through BIOS AHCI setting) before it will install the driver.  So I’ve reached an impasse with ACER and Samsung.  

At least, assuming I NEED the NVMe driver in the first place!  I don’t know if this driver will give me any improvement in performance.  I don’t know if the RAID driver does the job just fine, even when there’s no RAID volume.  It just means I don’t know if I can trust the data migration process because the manual itself says “this software may not function properly.” without it.


Perhaps another way to migrate my OS is with MiniTool Partition Wizard, which seems to be clever enough to manage OS migration in a way that allows me to keep the original hard disk in my computer.

I haven’t tried this yet, and I’m not sure if it is safe to do with both M.2 drives being run with a RAID driver.  


Any advice would be appreciated before I potentially destroy my operating system trying to get it working on a faster drive!


P.S. I did try moving my original M.2 SATA disk from slot 2 to slot 1 to see if it would work any differently, but it wasn't recognised by the BIOS at all.  It’s like as if the BIOS was preconfigured for slot 1 to work only with PCIe drives, despite what the manual says at https://us.answers.acer.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/61109.  I can’t test that theory because the BIOS is way too simple and shows none of this kind of detail!


I’m hoping someone else can shed some light on the above cause there really isn’t much documentation on this scenario.  


Cheers,

Stephen


Answers

  • Commodore_1995#
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    Hi! From what I understand, you are having difficulty cloning. You also have this option, see:
    https://youtu.be/cCmAOwRYNwY
    Try reinstalling windows as shown in the video. Then I will try to help you with the other questions.
    Oi! Eu não sou sou a cortana! Mas estou aqui para ajudar! Hi! I'm not the cortana! But I'm here to help!
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  • xapim
    xapim ACE Posts: 7,257 Pathfinder
    edited November 2019
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    SGLtech you can try and use easeus partition master (never let me down before on any kind of cloning) im not sure if this is the case or not but probably when you insert the new m.2 nvme to clone via both internal m.2 ports the bios would try to build a raid when you boot up so if this case just to make sure you wont get this issue i would get a usb nvme adapter and clone the drive via usb adapter then just remove the original and replace it with the new cloned one and im guessing the same adapter would also work backwards and support normal sata (this doesnt work the other way around sata m.2 adapters/enclosures/ports will not support nvme) so you could use it to format your original ssd to still be able to use it if not just keep it as spare recovery drive in case something happens you are always safe with a working os anyway its just my opinion of what might be happening or you can just follow @egydiocoelho advice and just reinstall windows if you dont what to go through all the hassle of cloning :)


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  • SGLtech
    SGLtech Member Posts: 6

    Tinkerer

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    Here’s an update:  


    I discovered that booting Windows in Safe Mode allows the bootloader to recognise the drives after setting the BIOS to AHCI mode.  Details here:  

    http://triplescomputers.com/blog/uncategorized/solution-switch-windows-10-from-raidide-to-ahci-operation/


    After successfully changing the BIOS to AHCI mode, Microsoft installed it’s Standard NVM Express Controller for the NVMe drive.  Then it became possible to install Samsung’s NVMe Controller driver.

    Samsung Magician could see the 970Evo drive while it was running from a RAID driver, but the Samsung’s NVMe Controller driver allows it to access additional features, including drive health, temperature, diagnostic scanning, and over provisioning.  It still doesn’t support RAPID mode.


    New benchmarks:


    Samsung Magician Benchmarks

    Hynix SSD

    970EVOPlus

    factor

    Sequential Read (MB/s):

    559

    3382

    (6.0x)

    Sequential Write (MB/s):

    271

    3236

    (11.9x)

    Random Read (IOPS):

    64453

    277343

    (4.3x)

    Random Write (IOPS):

    60302

    310058

    (5.1x)



    Thanks @egydiocoelho and @xapim for your replies.  I’ll keep all that in mind for when I take the next steps.


  • SGLtech
    SGLtech Member Posts: 6

    Tinkerer

    Options

    Here’s an update:  


    I discovered that booting Windows in Safe Mode allows the bootloader to recognise the drives after setting the BIOS to AHCI mode.  Details here:  

    http://triplescomputers.com/blog/uncategorized/solution-switch-windows-10-from-raidide-to-ahci-operation/


    After successfully changing the BIOS to AHCI mode, Microsoft installed it’s Standard NVM Express Controller for the NVMe drive.  Then it became possible to install Samsung’s NVMe Controller driver.

    Samsung Magician could see the 970Evo drive while it was running from a RAID driver, but the Samsung’s NVMe Controller driver allows it to access additional features, including drive health, temperature, diagnostic scanning, and over provisioning.  It still doesn’t support RAPID mode.


    New benchmarks:


    Samsung Magician Benchmarks

    Hynix SSD

    970EVOPlus

    factor

    Sequential Read (MB/s):

    559

    3382

    (6.0x)

    Sequential Write (MB/s):

    271

    3236

    (11.9x)

    Random Read (IOPS):

    64453

    277343

    (4.3x)

    Random Write (IOPS):

    60302

    310058

    (5.1x)



    Thanks @egydiocoelho and @xapim for your replies.  I’ll keep all that in mind for when I take the next steps.


  • SGLtech
    SGLtech Member Posts: 6

    Tinkerer

    Options

    Here’s an update:  


    I discovered that booting Windows in Safe Mode allows the bootloader to recognise the drives after setting the BIOS to AHCI mode.  Details here:  

    http://triplescomputers.com/blog/uncategorized/solution-switch-windows-10-from-raidide-to-ahci-operation/


    After successfully changing the BIOS to AHCI mode, Microsoft installed it’s Standard NVM Express Controller for the NVMe drive.  Then it became possible to install Samsung’s NVMe Controller driver.

    Samsung Magician could see the 970Evo drive while it was running from a RAID driver, but the Samsung’s NVMe Controller driver allows it to access additional features, including drive health, temperature, diagnostic scanning, and over provisioning.  It still doesn’t support RAPID mode.


    New benchmarks:


    Samsung Magician Benchmarks

    Hynix SSD

    970EVOPlus

    factor

    Sequential Read (MB/s):

    559

    3382

    (6.0x)

    Sequential Write (MB/s):

    271

    3236

    (11.9x)

    Random Read (IOPS):

    64453

    277343

    (4.3x)

    Random Write (IOPS):

    60302

    310058

    (5.1x)



    Thanks @egydiocoelho and @xapim for your replies.  I’ll keep all that in mind for when I take the next steps.


  • Commodore_1995#
    Options
    I may be wrong, but it seems that rapid mode works only on sata 3 models. Also, a portion of ram is used, see: https://www.windowscentral.com/samsung-ssd-rapid-mode
    Oi! Eu não sou sou a cortana! Mas estou aqui para ajudar! Hi! I'm not the cortana! But I'm here to help!
    Se você gostou da minha resposta, marque como solução clicando em sim! If you liked my answer, mark it as a solution by clicking on yes!
    Aceite somente a resposta que ajudou a solucionar o seu problema! Please accept only the response that helped to solve your problem!
    Detection tool click here to find the serial number or partnumber of your model!                                                          

               
      egydiocoelho Trailblazer
     
    ProductKey clique aqui para descobrir o serial do windows! click here to discover the windows serial!
    Para usuários da comunidade inglesa, espanhola, francesa e alemã, usarei o google tradutor! :)
    For users of the English, Spanish, French and German community, I will be using google translator! :)