What's wrong with my CPU? #P03-620

dashPeriod
dashPeriod Member Posts: 6

Tinkerer
in Predator Desktops
Hey, this is going to be a longer post since I want to describe my problem as accurate as possible. I recently got myself the P03-620, I am really impressed by the performance. However, as I ran a few benchmarks like I always do on new hardware (3dmark, Cinebench etc.), I noticed that the CPU (i7 10700f) is not performing as it should.

I will say that I tried to fix the issue myself. Unfortunately, nothing has worked so far. Therefore, the only thing that is left for me to do is to ask you guys;
Anyway, just to make things clear, the CPU was running on the high-performance mode. I also made sure that in the advanced power settings, the minimum and maximum processor state both are set to 100% (I tried to change both parameters at some point, it didn't change anything). 
In Cinebench r15, the all-core as well as the single-core performance is 30-40% points below average of this specific CPU(I got about 1500, though it should be around 2300). Same thing in 3dmark Fire Strike, there I got about 8500 instead of the user's average of 11000+. As I monitored with HWMonitor, I realized that the CPU Clock is fluctuating a lot between 3,8-4,4 GHz. Also, I never saw it reaching the suggested boost clock of 4,7GHz or even 4,5GHz.
This problem doesn't only occur on heavy load, but also at idle, so thermal throttling is out of question. 
Long story short, all this ultimately leads to ingame stutters and a not so "smooth" experience.

So now the question: is it a common problem with this specific configuration (maybe the OEM-motherboard isn't capable of providing enough voltage to the CPU) or am I just unlucky to have a "bad" system?
If you guys yourselves had this issue, please let me know. Any suggestions would be much appreciated as I really want to get the best possible performance out of my new system.

Answers

  • StevenGen
    StevenGen ACE Posts: 12,155 Trailblazer
    edited April 2021
    dashPeriod said:
    Hey, this is going to be a longer post since I want to describe my problem as accurate as possible. I recently got myself the P03-620, I am really impressed by the performance. However, as I ran a few benchmarks like I always do on new hardware (3dmark, Cinebench etc.), I noticed that the CPU (i7 10700f) is not performing as it should.

    I will say that I tried to fix the issue myself. Unfortunately, nothing has worked so far. Therefore, the only thing that is left for me to do is to ask you guys;
    Anyway, just to make things clear, the CPU was running on the high-performance mode. I also made sure that in the advanced power settings, the minimum and maximum processor state both are set to 100% (I tried to change both parameters at some point, it didn't change anything). 
    In Cinebench r15, the all-core as well as the single-core performance is 30-40% points below average of this specific CPU(I got about 1500, though it should be around 2300). Same thing in 3dmark Fire Strike, there I got about 8500 instead of the user's average of 11000+. As I monitored with HWMonitor, I realized that the CPU Clock is fluctuating a lot between 3,8-4,4 GHz. Also, I never saw it reaching the suggested boost clock of 4,7GHz or even 4,5GHz.
    This problem doesn't only occur on heavy load, but also at idle, so thermal throttling is out of question. 
    Long story short, all this ultimately leads to ingame stutters and a not so "smooth" experience.

    So now the question: is it a common problem with this specific configuration (maybe the OEM-motherboard isn't capable of providing enough voltage to the CPU) or am I just unlucky to have a "bad" system?
    If you guys yourselves had this issue, please let me know. Any suggestions would be much appreciated as I really want to get the best possible performance out of my new system.
    Show us all the benchmarks as there are different scenarios of how a benchmark should be taken, what was your CineBench score (see this comparison to this link) as the usual i7-10700F in a CineBench test should be at 492 single-threaded compared to the top score of the Ryzen9-3950X of 524 single-threaded, this is allegedly what an i7-10700F runs with the Cinebench R20.

    The scores position the processor at Ryzen 7 3700X processor level performance. So and in saying all this, there are lots of variables to doing these tests and their scores in these comparisons, motherboards, environments, temps etc, hence 'thermal throttling' it could be that your system is overheating and needs better cooling for the purposes and environment that you are in, check all those factors. 
  • GotBanned
    GotBanned Member Posts: 654 Seasoned Specialist WiFi Icon
    "[...]This problem doesn't only occur on heavy load, but also at idle, so thermal throttling is out of question[...]"

    I would not be so fast to outrule throttling especially under full load. Under full load the CPU will be throttled and will lose performance because of it. I witnessed this with i5-10400f, which is runs cooler than your CPU. You can check this even with PredatorSense. Unfortunately the HSF and case air-flow just isn't enough to keep the temps in control.

    But maybe there is something else going on as well. Could it be that some test scores are being affected by the lower RAM speed? Maybe you are comparing your system with other systems with the same CPU but faster RAM? Going from DDR4-2666 (used by Acer) to DDR4-2933 or even DDR4-3200 will have an effect on benchmark scores.
  • dashPeriod
    dashPeriod Member Posts: 6

    Tinkerer
    edited April 2021
    StevenGen said:

    "[...]The scores position the processor at Ryzen 7 3700X processor level performance. So and in saying all this, there are lots of variables to doing these tests and their scores in these comparisons, motherboards, environments, temps etc, hence 'thermal throttling' it could be that your system is overheating and needs better cooling for the purposes and environment that you are in, check all those factors."


    So I took another benchmark in Cinebench r20 (3 runs each for single and all-core). My single-core was 465 points, which isn't exactly the average score based on the chart. For some reason the CPU maxes out at 4,5GHz on the single core test (the CPU temp was about 65°C).
    For the all-core test I got ~3700 points. At 83°C max, the CPU only managed to work at 3,8GHz constantly (100% utilization). Though I think the thermal threshold is above 90°C before the CPU starts to throttle noticeably. 

    For the environment: I live in Germany, it's relatively cold over here in general. Ambient/room temperature is 20°C. 

    The motherboard model is the Acer Predator P03-620. PC stands on my desk with enough space around it.
  • dashPeriod
    dashPeriod Member Posts: 6

    Tinkerer
    GotBanned said:
    "[...]This problem doesn't only occur on heavy load, but also at idle, so thermal throttling is out of question[...]"

    I would not be so fast to outrule throttling especially under full load. Under full load the CPU will be throttled and will lose performance because of it. I witnessed this with i5-10400f, which is runs cooler than your CPU. You can check this even with PredatorSense. Unfortunately the HSF and case air-flow just isn't enough to keep the temps in control.

    But maybe there is something else going on as well. Could it be that some test scores are being affected by the lower RAM speed? Maybe you are comparing your system with other systems with the same CPU but faster RAM? Going from DDR4-2666 (used by Acer) to DDR4-2933 or even DDR4-3200 will have an effect on benchmark scores.
    My idle temperature is ~55°C according to the PredatorSense app, still the CPU fluctuates like crazy. As I mentioned, on Cinebench r20 the CPU isn't able to go above 3,8GHz. Temps are fine though as it reaches 83°C max.
    As for the RAM, my system uses DDR4-2666 by Kingston. I know that there can be a major difference depending on which RAM you have, but i mean 2666 is still perfectly fine for most of the time. I don't think that by just switching to 3200 the fluctuation problem is solved... 

    I consider changing the stock CPU cooler for a better one though I am worried about it not working out. Worst case: warranty void, and I am standing there with a somewhat faulty device.
  • GotBanned
    GotBanned Member Posts: 654 Seasoned Specialist WiFi Icon
    You idle at 55C? There is something wrong with the TIM or the contact between HS and CPU die. Before doing anything else, I'd remove HSF (four screws) and apply new thermal paste. This costs you next to nothing, shouldn't void your warranty and bring your idling temps to 30C or so.

    Your system is using RAM at the fastest speed right now. There's no benefit in buying DDR4-3200 etc. because it won't run at advertised speed. RAM has nothing to do with CPU the frequency fluctuations or CPU not boosting more. What I tried to say is that maybe you are comparing your results with other 10700f CPUs, but unlike yours, they are on boards that support RAM XMP profiles? In short, faster RAM better scores.

    It would help if forumites with the same CPU ran the same benchmarks and posted the results here. Idling and full load temps also. 
  • dashPeriod
    dashPeriod Member Posts: 6

    Tinkerer
    I think the PredatorSense app was not updating the temps, so I restarted my PC. Now it shows 40°C at idle which is much more realistic. I guess there is nothing wrong with the applied thermal paste. 
    I just ordered a CPU Cooler anyway, it should be able to keep the temps under control. Hopefully the replacement will be easy, not sure if I have to disassemble the entire PC for that. I am just going to leave it as it is until I can upgrade the system. 

    Thank you for the effort guys! :)

    PS: in case anyone else with this system ran into problems like I did, feel free to share, so we can find a possible solution :))
  • GotBanned
    GotBanned Member Posts: 654 Seasoned Specialist WiFi Icon
    edited April 2021
    Which cooler you are planning on using? I and few others that I know of went for Noctua.

    This might interest you. On a Finnish tech site someone said that he didn't remove the original backplate at all. He inserted four black plastic "washers" and "metal wings" that came with a Noctua cooler on those metal studs surrounding the CPU. Then he secured everything with M3 screws.

    I'm not sure about the M3 screws, though. I remember seeing a post on this forum where the screw is M4. Maybe M3 being smaller than M4 went in the hole and kinda secured things? Anyway, maybe this M3/M4 is something you can try if you do not want to remove the board from the case.

    Keep us posted!
  • dashPeriod
    dashPeriod Member Posts: 6

    Tinkerer
    I went for the Cryorig H7 Plus. Based on the measurements this specific cooler should fit. The only thing that could be a problem is the PC's exhaust fan since the CPU cooler has two individual fans at the front and back. In case there is no room left, I am going to remove the CPU cooler's back fan.
    As far as the mounting screws go, I could not find any information about them. So it is either a hit or miss. 

    You said you went for Noctua. Is it the NH-U9S?
  • GotBanned
    GotBanned Member Posts: 654 Seasoned Specialist WiFi Icon
    I installed NH-D9L and know at least two who went for NH-U9S.

    Let's hope the cooler fits and can be attached without too much drama.
  • billsey
    billsey ACE Posts: 34,219 Trailblazer
    Does your system have one or two ram sticks installed? If just one you're not in dual channel mode.
    Click on "Like" if you find my answer useful or click on "Yes" if it answers your question.
  • dashPeriod
    dashPeriod Member Posts: 6

    Tinkerer
    billsey said:
    Does your system have one or two ram sticks installed? If just one you're not in dual channel mode.
    Yes, my system does have 2x8GB DDR4-2666 sticks installed. Even if it didn't run in dual channel, there shouldn't be a problem with the CPU clock fluctuating at idle. I noticed that this problem is caused by the voltage fluctuating between 0.8V and 1.3V, sometimes even dropping as low as 0.2V (according to the PredatorSense app). In case you run this system (doesn't need to be the exact same model) could you please tell me what your CPU clock looks in the high performance mode? Strange enough, my old system ran at 3,4GHz constantly without dropping in clock speed once.
  • billsey
    billsey ACE Posts: 34,219 Trailblazer
    The clock speed is supposed to vary based on usage needs, so at idle it should be dropping very low in both frequency and power. That's how they can pull so much battery life out.
    Click on "Like" if you find my answer useful or click on "Yes" if it answers your question.
  • WokeCthulhu
    WokeCthulhu Member Posts: 5

    Tinkerer
    https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/comment/1000269#Comment_1000269

    It cant be. You need access to the backplate on the backside of the motherboard. You will need to remove everything and even parts of the front IO in order to fit the entire motherboard out of the case. Then, like me, you will realize that Acer has glued the backplate in place. Leaving you with 2 options…

  • GotBanned
    GotBanned Member Posts: 654 Seasoned Specialist WiFi Icon
    https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/comment/1267616#Comment_1267616

    Hello there!

    I think you are talking about "Cryorig H7 Plus" mentioned in the discussion, right? I have no personal experience about this cooler. Too bad the poster I replied to did not come back and report his findings.

    About recommended Noctua coolers. It has been proved many times during the years that there is no need to remove the motherboard. Actually, I may have been the first one to do this cooler upgrade on PO3-620. When I replaced mine, I took the mobo out and removed the backplate only to later learn that it was unnecessary with the right screws (which I did not have at the time).

    You can remove the original backplate with a plastic prying tool. Those wedges that are used for removing car panels etc. and cost couple Euros a set. Just be careful and take your time.

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