Overheating and fan control issues with Predator Helios Neo 16 (PHN16-72). Looking for solutions?

AlexanderV

Hey guys. I've recently purchased a Helios Neo 16, with 14900hx and rtx4070 in it, and it overheats massively due to overvolting (touches 1.5v, which it should NOT). I wanted to ask if there is any way to undervolt it a bit, or to control it in any other way other than ThrottleStop/XTU, which both seem insanely limited due to Acer restrictions, all I can truly seem to change is TDP, but not voltage, frequency, or anything of any use.
I have updated the Bios to version 1.15, as that's the latest one on the laptop's support page.

Furthermore, is there any app out there that can be used to control fans, other than Predator Sense?
I mainly wanted to use the laptop in the bedroom (on a cooler stand, connected to an external monitor, so not in my lap, obviously), but the noise is insane. Using Predator Sense seems like a scam, since it only gives the illusion of user settings.
Fan options are Auto, Max and Custom. Setting it to Custom does NOT offer a proper fan curve for me to set, as practically any and all competitor manufacturers do, but instead, just a slider. Setting the slider to minimum, for example, makes it quiet but it's only temporary, as it gets overridden immediately as the cpu reaches 80c, and then the fans start blasting off like it's attempting to achieve liftoff.
Is there any software out there that would allow me to just create my own fan curve that will NOT be overridden?
The performance difference between the power modes Balanced and Performance seems to be somewhere between 30 and 40% performance lost when switching to Balanced. But keeping it on Performance has me well above 50 decibels, to the point in which I can barely hear my own thoughts.

Speaking of temperatures and other things… As I'm a custom loop builder and an ex XOC enthusiast, I decided to open it up and take a look. There is a chance that they might've just put some soft soldering tin instead of liquid metal on my device, given how the consistency of it was quite far from any liquid metal i've ever touched. Replacing it with Honeywell PTM7950 has already netted me a small improvement to temps (dropped by 3ish * celsius), but insufficient to keep it below 80c, so it still overrides my fan settings and goes above 50 decibels.
Another fun thing, only the cpu received the soldering tin that they say is liquid metal. The gpu die had basic, cheap thermal paste on it. I replaced both, and the gpu dropped 10c already.
I'll keep the PTM7950 for a few more days, to give it time to settle in and cure, and I'm hoping by then maybe someone here has an idea of any software to use, either for overvolting, or for proper, honest fan control.
Next step in my tests will be to try some graphite pads, and only after that, putting my own liquid metal on it.

Anyway, excuse my rant, but I've never owned such a limiting laptop before, especially in situations where the limitations cause more harm to the user, and potential damage to the components, based on voltage…
Aesthetically speaking, looks great, the hardware is, in theory, quite good. And all seems practically limited and underperforming because of Acer's forcefully imposed limitations.
And please, I don't want to hear the excuse that Acer locked undervolting because it ruined cpus. Undervolting cannot damage hardware. All it can do is make it not boot. Implement a basic bios reset combo (on Asus laptops, for example, hold power button for 15-20seconds, and it resets cmos) and that's it.

StevenGen

https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/718374/predator-helios-neo-16-phn16-72-undervolting-or-proper-fan-curve

Your PHN16-72 laptops temps should only increase to their max temp levels which the cpu and OS are set at 110°C in extreme gaming and not at idle, as it should be functioning normally with its fans in a quite mode, even in in the high settings Turbo mode, fan control Auto.

I’m using the PHN16-71 with an upgraded Samsung 990 Pro NVMe with the Heatsink and upgraded the ram to the 64GB kit @ 2x 32GB from Crucial ram type CT2K32G48C40S5- DDR5-4800 • CL=40 • Non-ECC • SODIMM • 262-pins • 1.1V • 2Rx8 based • PC5-38400 as that is the Intel specified max ram speed for this laptop and my laptop works perfectly stable, cool and neve ever overheats and doesn't need any undervalting, if you want to Undervolt a i9-14900HX see the TechPowerUp forum as they have some useful settings there for you if you want to go that route.

The Predator Sense adjusts fans speeds to the appropriate cpu temps, yes they are a bit loud when they rev up, but you have to expect that with a high end and this sort of a spec laptop like the PHN16-72, as these laptops are Not a gaming desktop and will never ever perform like one and/or run as cool as a desktop.

I think that you are far too critical and are expecting far too much from your laptop as I’m more than happy with my Predator Helios Neo PHN16-71 as it’s a great gaming package in such a small enclosure and for what it can achieve. Just some additional advice, I’ve used the Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut Extreme liquid metal for the CPU while for the GPU you should apply the Kryonaut Extreme that is a high performance paste and for the VRAM chips apply their Minus Pad Extreme which come in two sizes of 120x20mm and 100x100mm @ thicknesses of 0.5.1.0.1.5,2.0 and 3.0mm on my other laptop the Nitro AN515-56 and this combination seems to work very well as it reduced temps in that laptop by up to 15°C. Good luck and hope this helps you out.

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Axxo

Overheating can be caused by poor ventilation, dust buildup, or failing cooling fans. Prevention: Ensure that your computer is well-ventilated, regularly clean the dust from your components, and check that all cooling fans are functioning correctly. To help reduce the temperature, you can place the Laptop on a hard, flat surface, clean the air vents and fans, adjust power settings, use a cooling pad, or turn off the Laptop when not in use. If necessary, monitoring the temperature and consulting a professional is also recommended.

Get a powerful 5-fan cooling pad the size of your laptop and reduce the Max. Processor Power state to 95% when on power. Also use Balanced Power Plan instead of Maximum Performance Power Plan. Up to 95°C. under heavy load no issues, the CPU can sustain 100°C.

Disable NVIDIA/AMD Dedicated graphics card for a while and test your temps. Also boot in safe mode and open task manager with GPU ENABLED and see if you can check the temperature. If its hot, then graphics is the issue. Undervolting means to decrease power draw for better cooling and higher clocks of the cpu and can be done using Throttle stop.
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AlexanderV

https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/comment/1317676#Comment_1317676

I am aware of how temps work, what I mentioned was the fact that the fans themselves ramp up insanely loudly once it touches 80c, even when i have set it to quiet or manual in terms of fan speed (NOT profile. Will discuss that separately). And yes, I am aware it will not perform as a desktop pc, and that it will be loud, BUT for perspective, I've bought this laptop as a replacement for my 2021 Asus Rog Scar 17 (5900h @80w tdp, rtx3070 at 130w tgp), and when put side by side, the Asus fans at 100% make the noise level (50ish db) that the Helios Neo makes at 40% fan speed (or basically , as soon as it touches 80c on the cpu). For context, the Asus never even touched 95c, while the 14900hx I limited it manually to 65w, so lower than my old one and would still overheat and be louder)
The cpu itself, as I mentioned and you ignored, touches 1.5volts. That is part of the reason why it overheats, while the clocks themselves are surprisingly low (below 4ghz on both pcore and ecores, quite a difference from the supposed 5.7ghz all core that's marketed for this cpu and by Acer in the product page) and the fans are simply unacceptably loud when compared to alternatives from Asus, Msi, Lenovo, Gigabyte. That is also a problem, as we are now all well aware of the cpu degradation possible on the Intel 13th and 14th gens and how it was actively caused by too much voltage. 1.5v is too much voltage for anything and everything other than LN2 extreme overclocking.
The simple fact that any MANUAL fan speed that I set is completely ignored once it reaches 80c is an incredibly annoying thing, as it shows the complete and utter lack of any control over it.
As for your link, you clearly didn't read what I've said, or aren't sufficiently versed in it: the voltage is LOCKED. Everything is basically locked nowadays on the Predator Helios, only thing I can change is the power limit itself, which I can lower, but due to it still overvolting, it turns into a massive drop in performance with barely any real effect on temps. There is no undervolt possible because Acer deemed we're not allowed to do that anymore, and gave a lying reason as to why (they said undervolting killed cpus. that is completely impossible, worst case, you can get is system instability, fixable through a bios/cmos reset, which could easily be implemented as a key combo, like Power Button+Esc for 15 seconds or whatever)
Speaking of performance, like I said in my original post: going from Performance Mode to Balanced gives a drop of about 40% in performance. That's a huge loss, and even so, the fans are still louder than any gaming laptop I've ever tried. I do NOT have to expect the fans to be so loud, when not even running it at full capabilities, and when suffering such a performance loss. I want to change the curve to whatever I decide, not be completely ignored by it once it reaches 80c, as a laptop cpu will ALWAYS reach at least 80c.

Now for the thermal interface:
I've removed what I suspect is soft soldering tin pretending to be liquid metal that came with the laptop and for the time being, I have replaced it with TG Kryosheets, aka graphene pads, on both cpu and gpu, which indeed dropped temps, but still insufficiently to stop it from commandeering my fan speeds and going ham on them just because.
Replaced the chewing gum that was on the memory modules and IC modules with TG Putty Advanced (the Pro was sold out, havent been able to get my hands on yet), and the gpu and gpu hotspots are below 80c at all times.

There are 2 ways all of this would have been fixable:

• allow users to undervolt, be it in bios, or just allowing us to use ThrottleStop / XTU to undervolt ourselves. Lock overvolting and max power draw to keep it safe, sure, but allow undervolt. That would be the best case scenario where users who actually know what they're doing could get some proper performance out of it. In it's current state, a flagship 14900hx and a 4070 is BARELY beating a 3 year old laptop with older gen cpu and gpu due to clock throttles caused by the heat (in turn, caused by the voltage). Allowing this is by far the best case scenario.
• allow users to have a proper fan curve that doesnt get edited and ignored as soon as the laptop reaches 80c. I would understand it at 90c, or 95c, but at 80c , it's quite extreme. Practically any game will get you there either instantly or within less than 3 minutes, making any setting of yours completely moot.

AlexanderV

https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/comment/1317874#Comment_1317874

Brand new laptop, less than 2 weeks old. It isnt fan, it isn't ventilation or ambient temps. It's insane voltage, far far more than a cpu should receive, with a lack of ability to fix the voltage issue and a fan setup that does not allow the user to try and fix that either. I purchased it, as everyone else, basically, as a performance laptop, not to restrict and make it horribly weaker just to fix Acer's inadequacies

Performance drop going from Balanced to Performance is aprox 40% (PoE2 for example ,on Performance, it reaches 150fps. On Balanced, barely goes to 100-105fps. That is a MASSIVE drop in performance, for a marginal drop in fan noise and temps).
Only adjustment of power setting is the literal TDP. That's the only one allowed due to Acer locking everything else. Dropping tdp drops clock speeds massively, while the voltage being too high still makes it overheat. Again, massive performance loss for marginal drop in fan noise and temps. Went all the way down to 40w tdp for the cpu, to test this.
14900hx's TjMax is 100c, but that is irrelevant to what I'm saying; the fans are far too loud and cannot be toned down as soon as cpu reaches 80c.

I have already used multiple software to check temperatures. The fan ramps are not caused by the gpu, as the gpu and gpu hotspots are nicely below 80c most of the time. The fan speed bypass and increase happens instantly as soon as the cpu reaches 80c. Tried disabling the e-cores, which also ended up in a noticeable performance drop, but the temp difference was, again, much smaller than the performance hit.

Again, read everything I've said carefully. I'm not a beginner, quite the contrary, and I've already exhausted all possible variations of what I can do, as a user, to fix the issue.
Some may accept it as it is, but if compared to any and all competitors, the Helios Neo is simply insultingly underperforming, overly loud, and insanely limiting in things which could have made the laptop better for the users.

StevenGen

https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/comment/1318553#Comment_1318553

The Intel 13th/14th Gen cpu's have had their problems with the micro coding which apparently Intel has extended its warranty on these cpu's as they do overheat, imo Intel are not as good a cpu as the AMD cpu's as far as gaming and high end where temps increase, as I'm not surprised that your AMD 2021 Asus Rog Scar 17 (5900H @80w TPD runs better at the higher temps, as Intel have really slipped up with the 13th and 14th Gen cpu's which you should have known if you know so much of the technical specs of these cpu's., as I don't use my PHN16-71 laptop for gaming that much but now and then I do use the laptop for gaming but I do editing of videos for my wife's you tube channel and the laptop temps do increase like you say.

I've upgraded my PHN16-71 to 64GB ram DDR4-4800MT/s that has cooled the laptop down a bit, I've also updated the M.2 SSD boot drive with a Samsung 990 Pro with heatsink so the drive seems to run cool also and has improved performance and cooling overall somehow, but I can vouch for your solutions as what you are saying above sound very viable as solutions to improve temps for these Intel cpu laptops, as that is what I will do with my 13th Gen i5-13500HX/RTX4050 PHNN16-71 laptop, its good advice but don't hold your breath for Acer to allow their laptops to be undervolted, as they have disabled this for a while now. Good luck and tanks for the detailed answer and solutions that you have outlined above for the se PHN1672 which also applies to the 71 model that I'm using.

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Aakash4910

@StevenGen i also have phn16-71 and CPU temps is very high reaching 100degrees. Since day one i had temps issue and within 2 months i had sent it for checkup. They took the laptop for about a month and replaced the Liquid metal with a thermal paste but also issue persisted, so i have been using my laptop by controlling TDP but with huge performance drop. Now its been over 1 and half year of buying the laptop and i am currently thinking of replacing the paste with liquid metal (thermal grizzly conductonaut). Do you think it will solve my problem as i read somewhere the factory application of LM is bad in this laptop. Also, before buying this laptop i had watched several reviews of this laptop but none had thermal issues even though the wattage reached beyond 110 watts for CPU. But for mine if the CPU wattage goes beyond 65 watts i get 100degrees temps for CPU though the GPU temps are fine. So, what do you suggest, should i apply liquid metal or leave it as it is as limiting tdp keeps temps under control? Please note, temps drops instantly from 100 to 50-55 if i close the games.

AlexanderV

https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/comment/1318606#Comment_1318606

Reapplying Liquid Metal will drop temps A LITTLE bit, but not by that much. Honestly, I'd recommend you do the same as I did, and instead of using Liquid Metal (which is a bit more risky to use, anyway, unless you already have experience with it. I do, just prefer to not use it unless I have to), but to instead use Thermal Grizzly KryoSheet Graphene pads (get two packs, in 33x33cm or larger, and you will need to manually cut them gently with a scissor, to size) and put that instead of the liquid metal on the cpu and gpu. The original liquid metal, which to me felt like a very cheap substance, closer to a liquid-ish soldering thin more than any actual liquid metal I've ever touched, can be easily cleaned with Isopropyl Alcohol, to remove it and clean the gpu and cpu die as best as you can.
As another recommendation , get some Thermal Grizzly Putty Advanced, to either fully replace, or to add, on the gpu's vram modules and IC, just in case, to be 100% sure they have full contact and transfer the heat away.
That should drop your temps by a decent bit.

Out of curiosity, can you please install HWInfo64, and look at the temperatures and at the Cpu Voltage (Vcore / VID) , and tell me the max voltage the cpu gets? My suspicion is that you have the same issue as I have, which is unnecessary voltage causing the heat. (practically the whole point of this post of mine, which clearly Acer will ignore, but so will I in terms of ever purchasing another of their products)

StevenGen

https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/comment/1318613#Comment_1318613

Your suggestion above makes sense as with my experience with the paste and vram pads the Acer paste is not very efficient and any new products are worth trying especially from TG. Seeing that I've got stock of TG liquid metal, I will use that first and do a comparison with the TG KryoSheet Graphene pads as it should be very interesting to see the het dispersion differences between the two, as I've applied LM on a few systems and I've got experience with LM application and how to apply it properly.

The secret with liquid metal paste is to apply a thin layer on the cpu area only that heats up and not just apply it abundantly like the ordinary paste that most applications do which spills over, as that is what causes the damage if it spill onto the mobo surrounding circuitries and especially underneath the cpu (never use liquid metal on gpu's) soldering balls, which then shorts the cpu out and disables the cpu, but this does not mean that the cpu is ruined, as and if you are lucky 80% of time it can be saved with just cleaning the cpu edges as that is where the LM has penetrated into with Isopropyl and then using a heat gun to refloat the cpu, which works allot of times and fixes this problem.

But if the LM has penetrated the entire or into a large area underneath the cpu, you have to remove the cpu and clean and reball the cpu and refloat the cpu completely, which is a big job and a specialist job as you need special tools and mobo heat pads to reapply the cpyu. the cpu as that is what causes the damage.

This is an official Predator Acer guide of applying liquid metal paste that one of their Predator Triton laptops service guides had but unfortunately it hasn't been upgraded since, as I haven't seen a guide like this ever again from Acer 😀when they started using LM in their Predator lsptop, its quite a thorough guide and could help others, I extracted this and made a PDF out of that service guide, so hope this is informative to others.

Liquid Metal Model Maintenance SOP (Service Kit.pdf

These are my PHN16-71-50JG Cpu Voltage (Vcore / VID) and cpu temps which are not too high at idle

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Aakash4910

temps are ok on idle but extreme on load

AlexanderV

https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/comment/1318770#Comment_1318770

Your voltages seem to be quite decent, but then again, you're running a 13500hx and a 13700hx… both being a lot less intensive and problematic than the 14900hx that I'm running (which often touches 1.5v, and highest I've ever seen was around 1.55v).
As for liquid metal application and use, I'm well aware, yeah. Used to play around with LN2 xoc, and nowadays I just build custom loops. Most of my desktops are delidded and in my own experience, at least on desktops parts, graphene pads tend to be extremely close in performance to liquid metal, but with far less hassle and risk, that's why I recommended them. Aaand they can easily be put on the gpu as well, without any real risk involved.

In your particular case, replacing the lm with proper one, and maybe the putty as well might fix all your issues. In my case, I saw an improvement, but insufficient. For me, the best fix that would fully unlock and allow me to use the whole performance capable by this laptop while keeping the ability to hear my own thoughts… is for Acer to do what everyone else does : allow undervolting.