2018 Helios 300 Throttling Issues

Vin2

Hi, my Predator Helios 300(PH-315-51-75WB) has been experiencing power throttling and some thermal throttling during gaming.

Is this common? I have undervolted my CPU to -0.170mV and I am still getting these throttling from AIDA64 as well as Throttlestop.

While the temperature during gaming hovers around the mid 80s, max temperature still reaches 95 degrees Celsius, which is puzzling given the undervolting I am doing.

Can anyone tell me if this situation I face is normal, or is my unit a little faulty in terms of its cooling solution.

Thanks.

lilenday

I think with undervolting, your temperature is still quite high. I’d suggest you watch @Red-Sand optimization video first (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XTPMwQKlfPE).
after that, you may want to watch his undervolting guide and see if it will help you. Keep in mind, prior to this if you have undervolted a lot of times, Throttlestop might not be undervolting correctly. You should go back to default settings, uninstall it then install again and try to undervolt. Also, with undervolting CPU should give you a better results on Cinebench R15 due to cooler temps. Do a stock voltage result and undervolted result see if there’s any difference. Hope it works out for you. 

Red-Sand

At -0.170 that could also be a "too low" of an undervolt.
I know @lilenday had better results undervolting -0.140 for cpu core/cache then he did at -0.160 for example.

@Vin2 You have the i7 8th gen correct?

Red-Sand

I do not get thermal throttling. Keep in mind though that my i7 8th gen is on the Helios 500 which has dual exhaust ports for each fan as well as a thicker chasis for more "breathing" room.

I do get power throttling but that is the design intent of these CPUs.
Basically you have a 28 second burst called "short boost" in which your CPU can use up to 56w package power (3.9ghz for all cores running). After 28 seconds is over your package power drops to 45w (about 3.4ghz for all cores running).

Note: This short burst time limit will only take effect when the CPU has been designated to a single task over that period of time, so running a benchmark that is considered a single process will drop after 28 seconds to 45w.
In a game however since processes change repeatedly you will most likely remain utilizing 56w (3.9-4.0ghz).

Since CPU benchmarks push maximum voltage allowed to the CPU during its test you will most likely get better temperatures while gaming opposed to the bench.

For example I can reach 3.9-4.0ghz avg clock between al cores while gaming yet only utilize 20-25w package power the entire time. Due to lower voltages used the temperature is much more tamed.

lilenday

I think with undervolting, your temperature is still quite high. I’d suggest you watch @Red-Sand optimization video first (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XTPMwQKlfPE).
after that, you may want to watch his undervolting guide and see if it will help you. Keep in mind, prior to this if you have undervolted a lot of times, Throttlestop might not be undervolting correctly. You should go back to default settings, uninstall it then install again and try to undervolt. Also, with undervolting CPU should give you a better results on Cinebench R15 due to cooler temps. Do a stock voltage result and undervolted result see if there’s any difference. Hope it works out for you. 

Red-Sand

At -0.170 that could also be a "too low" of an undervolt.
I know @lilenday had better results undervolting -0.140 for cpu core/cache then he did at -0.160 for example.

@Vin2 You have the i7 8th gen correct?

Vin2

lilenday said:

I think with undervolting, your temperature is still quite high. I’d suggest you watch @Red-Sand optimization video first (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XTPMwQKlfPE).
after that, you may want to watch his undervolting guide and see if it will help you. Keep in mind, prior to this if you have undervolted a lot of times, Throttlestop might not be undervolting correctly. You should go back to default settings, uninstall it then install again and try to undervolt. Also, with undervolting CPU should give you a better results on Cinebench R15 due to cooler temps. Do a stock voltage result and undervolted result see if there’s any difference. Hope it works out for you. 

Thanks for the reply.

Cinebench R15 scores around 900-1000 at stock, and 1200-1220 after undervolt so I think that the undervolt did help.

My stock temps were a bit too high for my liking, constantly breaching 90 degrees celsius, but even with the undervolt, temps sometimes spikes to the mid 90s, which is puzzling to me.

Games like Pubg occasionally experience brief spikes where my CPU and GPU underclocks itself for like 10seconds.

I'll go ahead and watch the video that you have linked.

Vin2

Red-Sand said:

At -0.170 that could also be a "too low" of an undervolt.
I know @lilenday had better results undervolting -0.140 for cpu core/cache then he did at -0.160 for example.

@Vin2 You have the i7 8th gen correct?

Yes that is correct, i7 8th gen.

lilenday

@Vin2

I underclocked to -160mv and got +10C while doing the same tasks compared to -140mv for some weird reason. Maybe it’s the instability of it. I used to get 81C while playing pubg before undervolt. Now I’m sitting at 60C (2-3 hours of constant gaming with fan set to 3600rpm). I have the Helios 500 though. @Red-Sand optimization videos did help me lower my cpu usage at idle to 1-2% and thermals down 5-6C.

Vin2

lilenday said:

@Vin2

I underclocked to -160mv and got +10C while doing the same tasks compared to -140mv for some weird reason. Maybe it’s the instability of it. I used to get 81C while playing pubg before undervolt. Now I’m sitting at 60C (2-3 hours of constant gaming with fan set to 3600rpm). I have the Helios 500 though. @Red-Sand optimization videos did help me lower my cpu usage at idle to 1-2% and thermals down 5-6C.

But what about throttling. Did you experience any thermal or power throttling?

I am getting the power throttling quite a lot, though I am not too sure what is its impact on performance. I am not sure if the spikes I have when gaming is due to power throttling, or just high temps spike. Weird.

Red-Sand

I do not get thermal throttling. Keep in mind though that my i7 8th gen is on the Helios 500 which has dual exhaust ports for each fan as well as a thicker chasis for more "breathing" room.

I do get power throttling but that is the design intent of these CPUs.
Basically you have a 28 second burst called "short boost" in which your CPU can use up to 56w package power (3.9ghz for all cores running). After 28 seconds is over your package power drops to 45w (about 3.4ghz for all cores running).

Note: This short burst time limit will only take effect when the CPU has been designated to a single task over that period of time, so running a benchmark that is considered a single process will drop after 28 seconds to 45w.
In a game however since processes change repeatedly you will most likely remain utilizing 56w (3.9-4.0ghz).

Since CPU benchmarks push maximum voltage allowed to the CPU during its test you will most likely get better temperatures while gaming opposed to the bench.

For example I can reach 3.9-4.0ghz avg clock between al cores while gaming yet only utilize 20-25w package power the entire time. Due to lower voltages used the temperature is much more tamed.

Red-Sand

Overall as long as your CPU stays below 98 C you should not get thermal throttling.

lilenday

Vin2 said:

lilenday said:

@Vin2

I underclocked to -160mv and got +10C while doing the same tasks compared to -140mv for some weird reason. Maybe it’s the instability of it. I used to get 81C while playing pubg before undervolt. Now I’m sitting at 60C (2-3 hours of constant gaming with fan set to 3600rpm). I have the Helios 500 though. @Red-Sand optimization videos did help me lower my cpu usage at idle to 1-2% and thermals down 5-6C.

But what about throttling. Did you experience any thermal or power throttling?

I am getting the power throttling quite a lot, though I am not too sure what is its impact on performance. I am not sure if the spikes I have when gaming is due to power throttling, or just high temps spike. Weird.

No thermal throttle for me. Do you mean "power limit throttling"? I do get it also. I believe its firmware locked. But if you get power limit throttling, shouldnt you also get lower CPU temps since its underclocking your CPU?

Vin2

Red-Sand said:

I do not get thermal throttling. Keep in mind though that my i7 8th gen is on the Helios 500 which has dual exhaust ports for each fan as well as a thicker chasis for more "breathing" room.

I do get power throttling but that is the design intent of these CPUs.
Basically you have a 28 second burst called "short boost" in which your CPU can use up to 56w package power (3.9ghz for all cores running). After 28 seconds is over your package power drops to 45w (about 3.4ghz for all cores running).

Note: This short burst time limit will only take effect when the CPU has been designated to a single task over that period of time, so running a benchmark that is considered a single process will drop after 28 seconds to 45w.
In a game however since processes change repeatedly you will most likely remain utilizing 56w (3.9-4.0ghz).

Since CPU benchmarks push maximum voltage allowed to the CPU during its test you will most likely get better temperatures while gaming opposed to the bench.

For example I can reach 3.9-4.0ghz avg clock between al cores while gaming yet only utilize 20-25w package power the entire time. Due to lower voltages used the temperature is much more tamed.

Thanks for the informative answer. For now, I guess I can say that there is nothing wrong with my unit aside from the occasional temperature spike.

Hopefully, no more random spikes, might turn up the undervolt more.

Red-Sand

Highly recommend you watch the video posted above. Youd be suprised how removing windows background processes help your temperatures.

Apply the video methods to all applications youve installed yourself that may create task schdules and services for that app.

Vin2

Red-Sand said:

Highly recommend you watch the video posted above. Youd be suprised how removing windows background processes help your temperatures.

Apply the video methods to all applications youve installed yourself that may create task schdules and services for that app.

Yea I've seen the video. Thanks for the suggestion.

However, my issue is largely the high, and frequent temperature spikes, and they still exist even after following the steps in the video, and undervolting.

CKev

I found one background program is using 30% of CPU which causes heating. I suggest you to run Malwarebytes. Mine returned to normal again.

Red-Sand

Vin2 said:

Red-Sand said:

Highly recommend you watch the video posted above. Youd be suprised how removing windows background processes help your temperatures.

Apply the video methods to all applications youve installed yourself that may create task schdules and services for that app.

Yea I've seen the video. Thanks for the suggestion.

However, my issue is largely the high, and frequent temperature spikes, and they still exist even after following the steps in the video, and undervolting.

Are you able to determine the source of the increased use in resources?
Temperature spikes don't just happen..
You could have Acer repaste your system to rule that out.

Timo3008750

Hi guys! Whats the FB channel of this community? I have got some performance questions about helios 300 ph317-52 i7-8750H 16gb 512ssd 144Hz 1060 GTX... My laptop isnt working fully on 3,9-4,1ghz because of 45w power throttle and I cant get it off. I benchmarked 1120 in Cinebench R15 CPU test. Cheaper ASUS laptop with same CPU/memory did 1285 score and its all 6 cores we're fully synced in HWMonitor all bench time.

I haven't gone through thermal pasting yet, but temperatures aren't that bad at the moment.

I'm not happy that my laptop isnt performing the way it is promised to work on side of the laptops package. FID states only reach 35 at max.... Should I just bring it back to shop?

xapim

Timo3008750 said:

Hi guys! Whats the FB channel of this community? I have got some performance questions about helios 300 ph317-52 i7-8750H 16gb 512ssd 144Hz 1060 GTX... My laptop isnt working fully on 3,9-4,1ghz because of 45w power throttle and I cant get it off. I benchmarked 1120 in Cinebench R15 CPU test. Cheaper ASUS laptop with same CPU/memory did 1285 score and its all 6 cores we're fully synced in HWMonitor all bench time.

I haven't gone through thermal pasting yet, but temperatures aren't that bad at the moment.

I'm not happy that my laptop isnt performing the way it is promised to work on side of the laptops package. FID states only reach 35 at max.... Should I just bring it back to shop?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1969145569968592

The cpu will only reach the 3.9-4.1 is it's using one core only with the all cares it will stay at lower clock the up to turboboost performance it's one single core in use not all 3.5 should be about right for all cores in use so i don't see any issue there

fejerm

Timo3008750 said:

Hi guys! Whats the FB channel of this community? I have got some performance questions about helios 300 ph317-52 i7-8750H 16gb 512ssd 144Hz 1060 GTX... My laptop isnt working fully on 3,9-4,1ghz because of 45w power throttle and I cant get it off. I benchmarked 1120 in Cinebench R15 CPU test. Cheaper ASUS laptop with same CPU/memory did 1285 score and its all 6 cores we're fully synced in HWMonitor all bench time.

I haven't gone through thermal pasting yet, but temperatures aren't that bad at the moment.

I'm not happy that my laptop isnt performing the way it is promised to work on side of the laptops package. FID states only reach 35 at max.... Should I just bring it back to shop?

The maximum turbo clock of 6 core load for 8750H is 3.9 Ghz. However you are correct, there is a TDP limit set by Acer. In matter of fact the 8750 cpu needs about 56W TDP to achieve stable 3.9 Ghz, but to be the most stable even 70W might be required. 
By standard all Acer laptops (Even the Helios 500) have the default PLL settings applied by Intel, meaning PLL1 is 45W and PLL2 is 56.250W.
THis means that for a short time the cpu will get 56W TDP limit but after a few seconds it will be reduced to 45W. 
THis means that if you start a cpu stress test (like Aida64) you can see that after a few seconds the core clocks will drop. This is because the TDP has dropped to 45W. In CPU intensive games like Battlefield 1 you can also see the core clock dropping from 3.9 Ght to about 3.4 Ghz. This is because of the 45W TDP limit. 
With the Helios 500 Acer allows the user (with the latest BIOS and Predator Sense) to change PLL1 45W / PLL2 56.250W to PLL1 56W / PLL2 70W by changing CPU power setting to "Max". 
However for other Acer laptop it is not possible. 
The settings for this in the BIOS is hidden, so there are only 2 ways to get more stable core clock:
1) Unlock the BIOS, upload the modded Insyde BIOS with an SPI programmer and manually increase the TDP
2) Undervolt the CPU. 

The easiest way is to undervolt the CPU. Unlike with the previous generation undervolting will decrease temps, however not much. This is because when you undervolt a TDP locked 8750H the operation frequency actually stabilize more. 
You cpu core clock by default settings is around 2.4 -2.8 Ghz when running cpu stress test like Aida64, however if you undervolt it will increase to about 2.8-3.0 Ghz. In games like Battlefield 1 the 3.9 Ghz will be more stable too. 
Because of the higher core clock the produced heat will not really be reduced, but as I said the core clock will be more stable.7

tl;dr: For newer Acer laptops undervolting is actually for stabilizing the core clock and not really good for reducing temps. 

ps: Please note that undervolting the cpu might damage your motherboard! Only undervolt the CPU if you have good VRM cooling!
The TDP of the CPU will not change when you undervolt, so it will still procuce 45W! However with lower voltage it will need more Ampere to produce this and to do this it will stress the VRMs more and thus the VRMs will run much hotter. If the VRM does not have good enough cooling it can die. 
Helios 500 users! Acer has good VRM cooling, however they DID NOT put thermal pad on 1 VRM! Design flaw or manufacturer error, I do not know, however if you plan to undervolt, dont forget to check if all your VRMs have thermal pads! If you don't have thermal pad for 1 VRM (like I did), you need to manually add it or that VRM might die !