Predator Orion 5000 P05-650 hard-freezes while gaming

Plutonia
Plutonia Member Posts: 24 Troubleshooter
in Predator Desktops

A few months ago I bought an Acer Predator Orion 5000 P05-650. The system comes with a Windows 11 Home OEM which is worthless to me so I installed my retail Windows 10 Professional on it. Whenever I'm playing a particularly performance-intensive game, there's a random chance that the entire PC freezes and you need to hold down the power button to turn it off and on again. There is no bluescreen. No trace of an error is left in Event Viewer. No minidumps are recorded. Reliability monitor just lists the power being cut off since that's the only way to reset the PC after the freeze. The freezing isn't even related to how much is going on in a game graphics-wise. It seems to be entirely random. Also I manually set the fans to maximum via PredatorSense whenever I'm playing a demanding game to keep it cool.

I got some third-party advice telling me that I could try disabling Windows 10's ability to automatically acquire device drivers. I did, after doing a complete fresh reinstall of Windows 10, and I painstakingly installed every hardware driver manually by downloading them from Acer's website using my PC's serial number. That actually helped a bit, because it seems that the PC's operating temperatures went down somewhat, and the freezing happens less often now. But less often is still not never, and it's still unknown what is actually causing it. The only warning that remains in Device Manager is: Resource Hub Proxy device - This device is currently waiting on another device or set of devices to start. (Code 51) Dependencies: PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_7A4C&SUBSYS_164E1025&REV_11\3&11583659&0&A8. Device Manager is claiming that it already has up to date drivers and nothing can be done about that warning. Also there's this event in Event Viewer regarding the WiFi adapter that comes up daily. "The description for Event ID 7010 from source Netwtw10 cannot be found." I don't use WiFi. I only use wired Ethernet.

I've done all of the normal diagnostic procedures, checking for corrupted system files, etc. I've tested the GPU with Furmark and there were no problems. I've tested the RAM with Windows Memory Diagnostic and there were no problems. Same with Memtest86. The only test program that I've managed to use to replicate the freezing issue outside gaming is Prime95 CPU stress test, specifically the "Large FFTs maximum power usage" test, and even that test can usually run for quite a while before it freezes. So, could it be a power supply issue?

Today for the first time the PC actually froze and rebooted in a way that looked like a GPU fault, because the colors on the second screen went crazy and the computer actually managed to record a minidump before rebooting instead of freezing, even though it still didn't manage to get to bluescreen. The memory dump shows the error "ntoskrnl.exe"

I have not flashed the BIOS but the only update I can see on their website for this PC is "Update AMI Kernel to CRB028(BKC WW46-2022)". There's still over a year of warranty left for this PC so I don't really want to risk bricking the machine in case the problem can be solved in another way.

This is the first time anything like this has ever happened with a PC of mine, and also the first time I've ever bought a pre-built machine.

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Answers

  • chugzilla
    chugzilla Member Posts: 727 Seasoned Specialist WiFi Icon

    well first off always do any BIOS updates from windows update its much safer and easier to do, all my updates have been done through that way and not a single issue. now if you can ide return it-exchange for another one. if not sending back to acer or waiting here for a reply from one the experts is your only option. it could be anything. going to windows 10 pro could have caused it because a lot of acer programs that come with windows 11 are not compatible with windows 10. something to think about maybe you need to run the pc as it came before making major OS changes.

  • Plutonia
    Plutonia Member Posts: 24 Troubleshooter
    https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/comment/1232929#Comment_1232929

    Firstly, BIOS can't be updated via Windows. It's a very specific piece of software that the motherboard needs to be able to run within extremely specific parameters or risk permanently breaking the hardware. Only the board manufacturers offer those updates and you install them via USB drive.

    Secondly, if Acer's chipset drivers would be incompatible with Windows 10, why would you even be able to install them? Incompatible drivers should throw an error when you attempt to install them.

    But bottom line is, I'm not using this PC with the Windows 11 that came with it. OEM-licensed Home edition with manufacturer's bloatware pre-installed is not acceptable.

  • chugzilla
    chugzilla Member Posts: 727 Seasoned Specialist WiFi Icon

    well i do all my BIOS updates through windows update their called acer firmware updates. and i have the PO5-640 model. and there are a lot of ppl here that downgrade from windows 11 to windows 10 and have the same issues. and you can uninstall all the bloatware i already have its not that hard.

  • Plutonia
    Plutonia Member Posts: 24 Troubleshooter
    https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/comment/1232957#Comment_1232957

    I actually tried to look up if there's any truth to that and it appears to be false. There is no mechanism for updating the BIOS of a motherboard through the operating system. At first I thought that I was behind the times and Windows has advanced to the point of being able to flash a Basic Input Output System in runtime, but that really does not make sense since an operating system runs on top of a kernel, and a kernel communicates with the hardware via the BIOS. That's why actually updating a BIOS is so risky. If anything goes wrong, the PC will not be able to boot again unless you replace the CMOS chip with one that has a functional BIOS pre-programmed in.

    Also, before making this thread I tried to look up if others had the same problem and I didn't find other Predator 5000 users having Windows 10 related hard freezing issues.

  • chugzilla
    chugzilla Member Posts: 727 Seasoned Specialist WiFi Icon

    well i do all my BIOS updates through windows update in the advanced options then optional updates. it's that simple. don't know what you're talking about but that's how i do mine i have done 4 now since i got my pc last year.

  • Plutonia
    Plutonia Member Posts: 24 Troubleshooter

    I think we're talking about two different things and what you're actually updating there is not BIOS. It's probably some chipset drivers or something. BIOS is too central to the hardware to be directly accessible to the operating system, and updating it is too delicate a process to be relegated to any sort of semi-automated system such as Windows Update. It's something you should either very rarely or never have to do.

    Anyway, I guess I'll wait for some anecdotes of whoever managed to fix their Predator freezing issues and how they accomplished that. I need to actually pinpoint what the problem is and how it was resolved.

  • themero
    themero Member Posts: 49 Devotee WiFi Icon
    edited October 2023

    first off what is your cpu ? if its a 13th gen that could be the issue as it seems windows 10 doesn't run well with them due it having power and economy cores , seems 10 gets confused with them . maybe try installing 11 and test everything again to see if the issue persists . And as for letting windows install drivers automatically , sometimes its a good idea and sometimes its not . I'd say let windows install every driver it wants too ( plus optional drivers ) , except for your graphics card . I know the windows NVidia drivers are a few years old now so best to install that yourself . also what is the power rating of your psu and are you running a powerful graphics card ? let me know anyway we should be able to figure this out .

  • themero
    themero Member Posts: 49 Devotee WiFi Icon
    edited October 2023

    and as for the bios update , i read before that windows only uses the downloaded bios to update something in the O/S , better compatibility or something like that .

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/windows-update-scheduled-a-bios-update/3eac20f3-1489-413e-9bdd-970686d9e332

  • Plutonia
    Plutonia Member Posts: 24 Troubleshooter
    edited October 2023
    https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/comment/1233053#Comment_1233053

    I haven't changed any of the hardware on the P05-650, so it's an i7 13700F and an RTX 3080. I'm hesitant in testing Windows 11 because I'd have to use my Windows 10 Pro product key to activate, and I don't know if that key is then valid for Windows 10 anymore? And what I'm never going to do is attempt to activate the OEM Win11 that came with the PC using my 150€ Professional key. That's just asking to be screwed over. Though I think you need to install Win11 fresh anyway if you're upgrading from Home to Pro.

    Since I know for a fact that automatic driver installs already corrupted things once, (CPU ran at 100°C before I did a fresh install and manually put in Acer's drivers) then I suppose the best practice would be to install Windows 11, keep it disconnected from the internet, install all of Acer's drivers from the website using my PC's serial number, and once all that is done, then activate automatic driver updates again. Windows shouldn't attempt to override existing Acer drivers with some incompatible [Content removed] of its own when existing first-party hardware drivers are in place.

    [Edited the thread to hide sensitive information]

  • themero
    themero Member Posts: 49 Devotee WiFi Icon

    if its a proper windows key ( not a one off use it and its done ) you can install it on as many pc's as you like , but you can only use one pc at time online as they'll detect 2 pcs running with the same key and slap your wrists lol.

    plus you don't actually have to activate window 11 to get it running , there's plenty of guides on google showing how to do it . you'll just end up with them reminding you your copy isn't registered , but you wont mind that as its just for testing purposes.

    have you tried making a new windows install usb , just incase the version your installing is corrupted somehow ?

  • Plutonia
    Plutonia Member Posts: 24 Troubleshooter

    The version of the Windows install media I have can't be corrupted in any way that would cause this issue, since I've already used it in my previous home-built PC. I uninstalled the product key and then reinstalled the OS on the Predator.

    My real concern is that if I upgrade once to Windows 11 using this Windows 10 Pro product key, will that key then be forever associated with 11 and not allow me to register it with 10 again? Because if installing W11 does not solve the problem then I need to be able to roll back to 10.

  • billsey
    billsey ACE Posts: 34,246 Trailblazer

    Back to the original question… The PO5-650 (note the PO as in Predator Orion, not P0 as in Predator Zero) is new enough it doesn't have Windows 10 support. Very likely one or more of the drivers just don't work right in Windows 10. Your best bet if you want to run Windows Professional is to do the upgrade to 11 from your Pro install.

    Now, as to BIOS updates. The ones done through Windows update are almost always updates to the EFI images, not to the low level CMOS code. The low level code is updated through the BIOS updates Acer provides on their support sites. Allowing updates through Windows update to the CMOS portion of the BIOS would open up a pretty large security hole…

    Click on "Like" if you find my answer useful or click on "Yes" if it answers your question.
  • Plutonia
    Plutonia Member Posts: 24 Troubleshooter
    https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/comment/1233837#Comment_1233837

    Personally, I've never heard of a modern motherboard simply not having support for an operating system that's only 8 years old and letting you install drivers that it can't use without producing any error messages or preventing the installation of incompatible drivers. What could there possibly be in Windows 11 that isn't in 10 that would cause some driver to only work 99% of the time and causing the PC to hard-freeze when it randomly doesn't? The only significant difference I can think of between the operating systems is the Trusted Platform Module that W11 utilizes, and I doubt my videogames have any business trying to use that.

  • chugzilla
    chugzilla Member Posts: 727 Seasoned Specialist WiFi Icon

    ok i called acer level 2 support today and spoke with a guy there i have talked to many times over the last year and a half of owning my PO5-640 and i asked him about the BIOS updates etc. he said the one at windows update IS THE SAME EXACT ONE as on the product download page. no difference between them at all. so, i said OK I'm going to try the one on the product page all you do is right click and select run as administrator he told me no need to put it on a thumb drive and it did the same thing as windows update, and nothing changed, and nothing was updated since i had already done it from windows update so there you go.

  • Plutonia
    Plutonia Member Posts: 24 Troubleshooter
    https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/comment/1234088#Comment_1234088

    Aha, so it's a reboot flash type of BIOS update. Instead of booting into BIOS and loading data from a thumb drive, you're giving Windows a command to set boot parameters so it reboots into a BIOS flashing procedure. I downloaded the update and checked its readme file and it illustrates the process. Still, the risk is the same. Only the delivery method is different. If any kind of hardware fault such as a power outage happens during the flashing process, the motherboard is a goner.

    Though now I'm even more wary of actually doing that, because since it's been implied that Acer has made their software incompatible with Windows 10, then who's to say that their reboot flashing BIOS update won't spontaneously mess up itself as well? …unless there is an alternative to update the BIOS in the traditional way.

  • chugzilla
    chugzilla Member Posts: 727 Seasoned Specialist WiFi Icon

    well, I'm not going to lie even with the level 2 tech on the phone i was nervous because i had never done a BIOS update from the EXE ever lol. but it all went well and booted up and he confirmed that the only thing that could mess it up is a power outage and those are rare and i wasn't worried because i have mine plugged into a gaming APC battery backup. so maybe you should call acer support and ask for a callback from a level 2 tech and pick their brain like i do when i have questions that can't be answered here.

  • billsey
    billsey ACE Posts: 34,246 Trailblazer

    As for drivers for older OSes, it's really very typical for the chipset manufacturers to stop developing drivers for the older OSes a few years after the new ones come out. Since Microsoft is dropping support for Windows 10 in just about a year and Windows 11 is a couple of years old, it's not surprising the chipset manufacturers don't do W10 drivers. In most cases You can just install the Windows 10 drivers and they will work well enough, but there are no guaranties when running a non-supported OS on them. Since you are seeing what could very easily be hardware driver issues it would be best to move to the current OS to verify they appear there as well. I'd bet Acer support would ask for the same thing.

    Click on "Like" if you find my answer useful or click on "Yes" if it answers your question.
  • Plutonia
    Plutonia Member Posts: 24 Troubleshooter
    https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/comment/1234290#Comment_1234290

    The frustrating part is that I specifically asked the vendor if I would be able to install my own Win 10 Pro on it and they said yes. I bought the PC on that condition.

  • billsey
    billsey ACE Posts: 34,246 Trailblazer

    The vendor was wrong in this case. Any chance you can go back to them for redress? Why do you want to run W10 so badly? Support is going away next year and you'll want to upgrade then anyway…

    Click on "Like" if you find my answer useful or click on "Yes" if it answers your question.
  • Plutonia
    Plutonia Member Posts: 24 Troubleshooter
    https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/comment/1234504#Comment_1234504

    Well, mostly because I'm not entirely sure about compatibility of certain software, but also because the Trusted Platform Module that W11 requires is basically anti-consumer hardware designed to give Microsoft control over what consumers can and can't do with their own property.

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