Predator Helios 300 PH315-55 - USB port - mouse not working but external HDD works

blackr1234

Hi everyone, I'm new to this community as I just bought my first brand new Acer laptop yesterday
Everything is awesome so far after I've installed all Windows 11 updates, except for one thing which I'll describe below.

On the right hand side of the laptop, there are two USB-A 3.2 gen 2 ports (one of them supports power-off charging).
On the left hand side of the laptop, there is one USB-A 3.2 gen 1 port.

My problem is, the USB 3.2 gen 2 port that doesn't support power-off charging (the top right one) does not work with my USB mouse/mice (tried both wired & wireless).
Even on the BIOS page, that port doesn't work with any of my mouse/mice.
Windows Device Manager does not refresh the page itself when I plugin the receiver (it normally does when it detects changes).
On the Devices and Printers page in Control Panel, it does not show the USB Receiver.
I've tried with a wired mouse, result is the same.

However, the other two ports have no issue.
Also, if I plug in an external hard disk, external SSD or even a USB thumb drive to that port, they can be detected and R/W operations work just fine.
I even managed to copy a Windows 10 image to a USB thumb drive with Media Creation Tool using that USB port.

As per my understanding, USB ports should be backward compatible and I am not aware that there are ports that won't work with mouse on a PC.
I have called the Acer technical support today and the support guy said it could be the mouse/mice being not compatible with the port, but he couldn't explain why other ports are working as they should be born equal.

Any idea from anyone will be greatly appreciated.
Besides, if you have a Predator Helios 300 laptop or a similar model, could you please let me know if a mouse (wired/wireless) works for you on that port.
Thank you and have a nice day.

JackE

>>>I have called the Acer technical support today and the support guy said it could be the mouse/mice being not compatible with the port, but he couldn't explain why other ports are working as they should be born equal.>>>

The support person is correct. If the USB devices are not USB3.2 enhanced superspeed certified, they may or may not work in all ports despite the backward compatibility claim. The older devices should work but many often don't. A good example are my USB2 sticks. They should work in all the USB3 ports. About half of mine don't. The other half do. Why? They're not enhanced superspeed certified. Unless a USB buss designer, I don't think anyone on these forums can give you  more of an in depth technical explanation for the need for this certification in ports that should be --- but often aren't --- backward compatible.

JackE

>>>Plug in a data storage device > Press a numpad digit with some force > It doesn't disconnect/reconnect. Plug in a mouse > Press a numpad digit with some force > It disconnects & reconnects in a split second. Well, perhaps these devices just work differently, so the issue is mitigated for data storage devices. >>>

Agreed. They use different pins that are soldered to the mainboard serial i/o buss.The mouse pressure sensitivity suggests the continuity of at least one of the pins not used by the storage device, is intermittent. Might be a cold, cracked or insufficiently soldered thru-hole pin.

 

JackE

>>>I have called the Acer technical support today and the support guy said it could be the mouse/mice being not compatible with the port, but he couldn't explain why other ports are working as they should be born equal.>>>

The support person is correct. If the USB devices are not USB3.2 enhanced superspeed certified, they may or may not work in all ports despite the backward compatibility claim. The older devices should work but many often don't. A good example are my USB2 sticks. They should work in all the USB3 ports. About half of mine don't. The other half do. Why? They're not enhanced superspeed certified. Unless a USB buss designer, I don't think anyone on these forums can give you  more of an in depth technical explanation for the need for this certification in ports that should be --- but often aren't --- backward compatible.

blackr1234

JackE said:

>>>I have called the Acer technical support today and the support guy said it could be the mouse/mice being not compatible with the port, but he couldn't explain why other ports are working as they should be born equal.>>>

The support person is correct. If the USB devices are not USB3.2 enhanced superspeed certified, they may or may not work in all ports despite the backward compatibility claim. The older devices should work but many often don't. A good example are my USB2 sticks. They should work in all the USB3 ports. About half of mine don't. The other half do. Why? They're not enhanced superspeed certified. Unless a USB buss designer, I don't think anyone on these forums can give you  more of an in depth technical explanation for the need for this certification in ports that should be --- but often aren't --- backward compatible.

Thank you very much for your reply, that helps. At least it's good to know that there is no guarantee in the backward compatibility of USB.

But I still don't get why the other USB 3.2 gen 2 port works with the same mice. I guess I have to wait for someone who owns Predator to share their experience.

By the way, I am really unaware of the SuperSpeed certification that you have mentioned. Where can I find such products? Even Logitech doesn't mention anything about the USB version compatibility in its product pages. How can I avoid buying products that don't work on that port?

In fact, I tested the ports with my Logitech Pebble M350 and Logitech G502 Hero. These are not old mice from unknown brands, so I'm quite confused on this.

Anyway I still thank you for sharing your experience.

blackr1234

JackE said:

>>>I have called the Acer technical support today and the support guy said it could be the mouse/mice being not compatible with the port, but he couldn't explain why other ports are working as they should be born equal.>>>

The support person is correct. If the USB devices are not USB3.2 enhanced superspeed certified, they may or may not work in all ports despite the backward compatibility claim. The older devices should work but many often don't. A good example are my USB2 sticks. They should work in all the USB3 ports. About half of mine don't. The other half do. Why? They're not enhanced superspeed certified. Unless a USB buss designer, I don't think anyone on these forums can give you  more of an in depth technical explanation for the need for this certification in ports that should be --- but often aren't --- backward compatible.

Oops I clicked the Yes button by mistake.
Although this has been marked as answered, actually I still want to continue discussing on it, coz I feel like the port is not backward compatible with USB 2.0 devices, not sure if it is by design or I have a faulty device.

I do hope it is by design.
However, if it is by design, I should not be the only person facing this issue. And I'd like to know the benefit of such design decision.
If it is a defect or faulty device, instead of working with all of my external storage devices, the port should probably not work with any USB device.

I have just tested with my dad's Cooler Master CK350 keyboard that has a USB 2.0 connection cable, same result.
As far as I know, mice and keyboards are usually USB 2.0, and that's why they don't work in that port.
Other ports have the backward compatibility, so they can work with USB 2.0 devices.
That's the only possible reason I can think of.

Perhaps I should also ask in other forums so other users of this product can share their test results.
Thanks.

JackE

You're not alone as mentioned earlier in my own case. I have a bunch of USB2 sticks from Amazon. They should work in the USB3.2 port. About half don't. They all work in USB2 ports. My Logitech m325 USB2 wireless dongle mouse works in the USB3.2 port. My Acer desktop wired mouse doesn't. Shown below is the USB3.2 warning from the specsheet for the PH315-55 model. If you still feel you have a defective machine with a lemon USB3.2 port then immediately return it to the vendor for a refund or exchange before the vendor's return merchandise authorization (RMA) period ends. Usually only a few weeks.  After that Acer warranty service must be used that usually takes longer. And I'm not confident that they'll find anything wrong with the lemon USB3.2 port. Unfortunately, I don't think the 3.2 certification or compliance testing is mandatory at this time. Thus labelling compliant devices is also likely voluntary.

blackr1234

JackE said:

You're not alone as mentioned earlier in my own case. I have a bunch of USB2 sticks from Amazon. They should work in the USB3.2 port. About half don't. They all work in USB2 ports. My Logitech m325 USB2 wireless dongle mouse works in the USB3.2 port. My Acer desktop wired mouse doesn't. Shown below is the USB3.2 warning from the specsheet for the PH315-55 model. If you still feel you have a defective machine with a lemon USB3.2 port then immediately return it to the vendor for a refund or exchange before the vendor's return merchandise authorization (RMA) period ends. Usually only a few weeks.  After that Acer warranty service must be used that usually takes longer. And I'm not confident that they'll find anything wrong with the lemon USB3.2 port. Unfortunately, I don't think the 3.2 certification or compliance testing is mandatory at this time. Thus labelling compliant devices is also likely voluntary.

I see, thanks for the supplementary information.
May I know which laptop model you possess and where I can download the specsheet with that warning message?
Even if I enter the S/N or SNID on the support page, all documents I can only find are the user manual and some safety docs.

blackr1234

Update:

I just tried to enable "Show hidden devices" in Device Manager.
Then I uninstalled all hidden "USB Composite Device" entries and replug-in my USB receiver to the problematic port.
A new "USB Composite Device" entry appears.
The mouse works for a while but then the entry is greyed out and the mouse stops working.
If I check the Properties of that entry, it shows Device status of below:

Currently, this hardware device is not connected to the computer. (Code 45)

To fix this problem, reconnect this hardware device to the computer.

So it's like an intermittent issue.

JackE

>>>So it's like an intermittent issue.>>>

Good observation. There is a Feb serial i/o driver update you might want to try on the downloads page. https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/support-product/9244?b=1

blackr1234

JackE said:

>>>So it's like an intermittent issue.>>>

Good observation. There is a Feb serial i/o driver update you might want to try on the downloads page. https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/support-product/9244?b=1

Thanks, that is also worth trying.
Let me tell you something weird.
I just disassembled my Predator Helios 300 but I did literally nothing and then I assemble it back into one piece.
After that I plug in my mouse USB receiver to the problematic port, and out of a sudden the mouse has been working for a few minutes.
So it changes from not working 98% of the time to working 98% of the time. Funny.
It could be just some poor contact somewhere in the motherboard.
But it is still not working perfectly, because when I press some digit button on my numpad (located above the USB port) with some force, the port disconnects and reconnects in a split second (like 0.1s), some icon on the right of the taskbar appears and disappears really quick, and the Device Manager page refreshes itself, implying hardware changes. And if I move the cursor at the time I press the digit button, the cursor freezes for around 0.5s.
  

JackE

>>>So it changes from not working 98% of the time to working 98% of the time. Funny.>>>It could be just some poor contact somewhere in the motherboard.>>>

The two side by side port 3.2 ports 14 & 15 should be soldered to the mainboard. This might suggest 14 has a cracked or cold mainboard solder joint. It happens. Since this is a brand new  recently bought machine still under warranty, you might want to try to return it as defective to the vendor/seller for an exchange ASAP before RMA period expires. Because the Acer warranty service will likely take a lot longer  

blackr1234

JackE said:

>>>So it changes from not working 98% of the time to working 98% of the time. Funny.>>>It could be just some poor contact somewhere in the motherboard.>>>

The two side by side port 3.2 ports 14 & 15 should be soldered to the mainboard. This might suggest 14 has a cracked or cold mainboard solder joint. It happens. Since this is a brand new  recently bought machine still under warranty, you might want to try to return it as defective to the vendor/seller for an exchange ASAP before RMA period expires. Because the Acer warranty service will likely take a lot longer  

Noted with thanks, I'm just afraid that another unit may come with other issues, so I'd rather test and know the limits and behaviors of the current one and accept it, also given that I think the issue I describe isn't really that serious.

I think mouse & keyboard reconnections are acceptable, it is only not acceptable if it happens to data storage devices.
However, I don't know how it behaves differently when I plug in a USB data storage device into the problematic port.

So from my testing on that port,

• Plug in a data storage device > Press a numpad digit with some force > It doesn't disconnect/reconnect.
• Plug in a mouse > Press a numpad digit with some force > It disconnects & reconnects in a split second.

Well, perhaps these devices just work differently, so the issue is mitigated for data storage devices. 

blackr1234

And it does not limit to pressing with force only, if I physically lift up my Predator in the air, such movement will also trigger USB mouse reconnect by chance. I test this by connecting a wireless mouse receiver to the problematic port, so it is not a cable wire issue.

On the other hand, for external data storage devices, even if I copy data FROM or TO the external disk, it works flawlessly with no interruption (at least Windows does not report a problem, and I don't see any icon changes in the Taskbar), so I believe that reconnection does not happen.

JackE

>>>Plug in a data storage device > Press a numpad digit with some force > It doesn't disconnect/reconnect. Plug in a mouse > Press a numpad digit with some force > It disconnects & reconnects in a split second. Well, perhaps these devices just work differently, so the issue is mitigated for data storage devices. >>>

Agreed. They use different pins that are soldered to the mainboard serial i/o buss.The mouse pressure sensitivity suggests the continuity of at least one of the pins not used by the storage device, is intermittent. Might be a cold, cracked or insufficiently soldered thru-hole pin.

 

blackr1234

JackE said:

>>>Plug in a data storage device > Press a numpad digit with some force > It doesn't disconnect/reconnect. Plug in a mouse > Press a numpad digit with some force > It disconnects & reconnects in a split second. Well, perhaps these devices just work differently, so the issue is mitigated for data storage devices. >>>

Agreed. They use different pins that are soldered to the mainboard serial i/o buss.The mouse pressure sensitivity suggests the continuity of at least one of the pins not used by the storage device, is intermittent. Might be a cold, cracked or insufficiently soldered thru-hole pin.

Thank you, Jack, I'm really glad that I have learnt something in the troubleshooting process.
Have a great day 

JackE

Same here. Guess I wouldn't have thought too much about the mouse (mis)behavior in the 3.2 port until you noticed the effect of pressure on the numpad. If that's the only hardware issue found, I might re-consider and accept it. Have a great  day too.   

blackr1234

JackE said:

Same here. Guess I wouldn't have thought too much about the mouse (mis)behavior in the 3.2 port until you noticed the effect of pressure on the numpad. If that's the only hardware issue found, I might re-consider and accept it. Have a great  day too.   

I just disassembled my Predator AGAIN.
And again, I did literally nothing other than touching the internal components.
I know I should avoid turning on the laptop while I have the back cover removed, but I did to check if the back cover is the culprit as I mentioned earlier that lifting the laptop up will cause the USB port to disconnect and reconnect.
What I observe is, the issue doesn't happen when there is no back cover attached to the laptop.
After that, I put the back cover up but I notice something is left behind / dropped from my laptop. It's small yellow tube (see attachment). Any idea what it is?

Anyway, as of now, no matter how hard I press on the keyboard or lift up the right bottom corner of my Predator, that (once) problematic USB port no longer disconnects and reconnects!

I'm not sure if this is a "grounding" issue , I have no knowledge in electricity, not even some common sense. I come up with this word because I once read some reviews on the Dell Inspiron 16 Plus (11th gen Intel), and I see users saying that its touchpad has grounding issue making it unusable.
Since I have done nothing but touching the port and the back cover, I think it may really be the root cause.

Any idea will be greatly appreciated! Thank you! 

blackr1234

Update

When I posted the above reply, I haven't put the screws back.

Now with the screws on the back cover, the issue happens again.

JackE

I think it's more likely that you may have disturbed the cracked solder joint enough that it's making good physical contact again on both surfaces of the crack. After a while, it may re-cur simply due to air/humidity corrosion of the solder surfaces.

The yellow thing doesn't look like a tube. I'd hafta guess it looks more like a broken piece of an uncooked Ziti pasta noodle. And there's no side-by-side reference with a more familiar small object like a pencil tip or ziti noodle to see just how small it really is.

 

blackr1234

JackE said:

I think it's more likely that you may have disturbed the cracked solder joint enough that it's making good physical contact again on both surfaces of the crack. After a while, it may re-cur simply due to air/humidity corrosion of the solder surfaces.

The yellow thing doesn't look like a tube. I'd hafta guess it looks more like a broken piece of an uncooked Ziti pasta noodle. And there's no side-by-side reference with a more familiar small object like a pencil tip or ziti noodle to see just how small it really is.

 

Thanks for your prompt reply. Lol that yellow tube is plastic, with one end closed.

Below image is the fix.
I think it is some physical contact of the metal causing short circuit or whatever, hence the reconnection.
First I tried making it tight, then I made it loose and finally I removed it which performs the best.
Next I'm going to test and see if disconnection happens while I'm gaming (it happened before and the laptop sits flat on my table).

JackE

>>>I removed it which performs the best.>>>

Still seems like a cracked solder joint on one or more USB soldered thru-hole pins to me. The case, the mainboard & the USB pins are likely being deformed enough by all the mechanical movements ---- whether it be by pushing the pad --- or --- by tightening, loosening or removing screws ---- or by manipulating the USB port --- to make or break the cracked connection. In other words, the removed-screw fix probably won't last very long.until you go back in there and start mechanically disturbing the cracked joint again. If it was mine, I'd probably avoid poking around inside too much because of the risk of collateral or side effect damage that might be worse than the mouse intermittancy annoyance.

blackr1234

JackE said:

>>>I removed it which performs the best.>>>

Still seems like a cracked solder joint on one or more USB soldered thru-hole pins to me. The case, the mainboard & the USB pins are likely being deformed enough by all the mechanical movements ---- whether it be by pushing the pad --- or --- by tightening, loosening or removing screws ---- or by manipulating the USB port --- to make or break the cracked connection. In other words, the removed-screw fix probably won't last very long.until you go back in there and start mechanically disturbing the cracked joint again. If it was mine, I'd probably avoid poking around inside too much because of the risk of collateral or side effect damage that might be worse than the mouse intermittancy annoyance.

Can this be a design problem in the internals by any chance?