Incomplete keyboard alternative functions in A515-54G (70Y9)

aphanic

Hi, I think it's something that ought to be handled at a firmware level so... in a newer BIOS release for this model perhaps?

This laptop ships with a numeric keypad and there are several functions associated to the different numbers, when the Num Lock is off the #7 key becomes Home, #1 is End and #3 and #9 are Page Up and Down respectively for example. The expected behavior is to have them act like that when Num Lock is engaged and we use the function key.

For example, with Num Lock on, pressing 3 should input the 3 number but pressing Fn + 3 should advance to the next page. As of now (BIOS v1.12) none of the alternative functions of those keys work, having Num Lock on and pressing 3 acts as if Fn wasn't pressed, leading to the number 3 being inputted.

I'd like to request this to be fixed in a subsequent BIOS release if at all possible, I don't know if this is the right channel to report such bugs but if it ain't and any Acer representative happens to come across this thread please forward it to the appropriate team (or let me know who to contact and how to get in touch with them).

Kind regards!

Commodore_1995#

Have you checked for a function called function key behavior in bios?

JackE

Yes. Jack E/NJ

aphanic

egydiocoelho said:

Have you checked for a function called function key behavior in bios?

I have that option configured so that function keys are the default and alternative functions require the pressing of the Fn key. For example, the F2 key would be F2 (e.g. rename a file/folder in Windows Explorer) but disable WiFi when pressed in combination with the Fn key.

As far as I can tell they all work as expected except for the ones in the numeric block on the right of the keyboard. For example Fn+Up acts as Play/Pause or Fn+Down as Stop when I have media playing in an app, but those alternates on the keypad seem not to.

JackE

This is not a full size KB. If you want keypad behavior, get a separate wireless/USB keypad or a full size KB. Jack E/NJ

aphanic

JackE said:

This is not a full size KB. If you want keypad behavior, get a separate wireless/USB keypad or a full size KB. Jack E/NJ

It is, please don't derail the thread, the implementation of the secondary function when Num Lock is engaged seems to be missing for those keys in this model.

See that attached image for example out of Acer's product page, the laptop is also known as an Aspire 5 in North America:

(mine ain't back-lit though, and the keyboard layout is Spanish, but it's the same thing.

JackE

Sorry, I was referring to the wrong model KB. The image below shows the functions. Which ones aren't working as expected? Jack E/NJ

aphanic

No problem

Just checked, none of the alternate functions work in the keypad when Num Lock is on, let's see if I can make a table or something:

---

-	+	Num Lock
7 Home	8  🠹	9 PgUp
4 🠸	5	6 🠺
1 End	2  🠻	3 PgDn
0 Insert	.  Del	Enter

---

That's a bit odd but I am no artist hahaha, it's supposed to represent the keypad on the keyboard I have. Apart from the first line and the 5 and Enter keys, the rest of them have 2 symbols per key.

When Num Lock is off, the 7 / Home key acts as Home and when it's on acts as the 7, the same holds true for the rest as well, for example when it's on if I press the 6 I get a 6 and when it's off that key acts as the right arrow key.

So far so good, the problem is that the Fn key isn't performing the alternate functions when Num Lock is on in those keys. For example, if Num Lock is on and I wanted to go to the beginning of the line I'm writing pressing Fn + 7 doesn't do it, the behavior is the same as if I just pressed the key (i.e. a 7 appears in the screen).

So when Num Lock is on you lose access to Home, End, PgUp and PgDn. Insert and Del don't work either, but there are independent keys for those above on the top of the keyboard. The arrow keys are present on their own too, but right now if you want to have the keypad enabled you have to sacrifice those 4 functions and at least to me Home and End are rather useful in my day to day life.

The big problem is that the Fn key is handled by firmware usually, so it doesn't register in the OS. Think of a keylogger application for example, pressing the Fn key on its own wouldn't make it log anything, that's why the fix needs to be by means of a BIOS update probably

JackE

>>>So when Num Lock is on you lose access to Home, End, PgUp and PgDn. Insert and Del don't work either>>>

Let me focus on the 7-Home

NumLK on, 7=7.

NumLK off, 7=Home

What you'd like is

NumLK on. 7=7 & FN+7=Home

Is this correct?

Jack E/NJ

aphanic

Yep, that's it, when NumLock is on the secondary functions should be accessible with the Fn key, so while NumLock is engaged, Fn+7 = Home.

Right now it's as if the Fn key wasn't pressed, so with NumLock on, Fn+7 = 7.

JackE

>>>Right now it's as if the Fn key wasn't pressed, so with NumLock on, Fn+7 = 7. >>>

Focussing on NumLK on, FN+7=7 instead of desired FN+7=Home. what happens in the following BIOS Main tab scenarios?

NumLK on FN+F7=??? when FunctionKeyBehavior=FunctionKey

NumLK on FN+F7=??? when FunctionKeyBehavior=MediaKey

Jack E/NJ

aphanic

Sorry for the delay, night time in my area Just checked switching the default behavior to be media keys instead of functions, the same seems to happen:

Function key setting in BIOS, Numlock on, Fn+7 = 7
Media key setting in BIOS, Numlock on, Fn+7 = 7

Function key setting in BIOS, Fn+F7 = Disables the touchpad, it's the function drawn in the F7 key for this model.
Media key setting in BIOS, Fn+F7 = F7, whatever it does, I don't think that function key does anything on its own.

The alternative functions seem to work as expected for this model in both modes, except for the keypad ones. Well, when the BIOS setting is set to "Media keys" you'd expect the regular arrows to control playback instead of being arrows unless pressed with Fn, that doesn't seem to happen either. Not a problem for me to be honest, but breaks the consistency of the BIOS setting which could be a problem for some people.

In other words, the regular down arrow doubles as the "media stop" key, when the BIOS setting defaults to function keys that key works as the down arrow key unless pressed with Fn, in which case it stops the music or video you're playing. One would expect that happens if you press the key alone when the setting in BIOS is set to media keys by default, but it doesn't. Regardless of the BIOS setting, the regular arrow keys (the ones below the right Shift key) always act as directional arrows and only act as media keys when pressed together with the Fn key.

JackE

To try to put things in a nutshell, I lifted the image below out of the specsheet.

Your main issue is highlighted, ie the internal numpad overlay numeric keys are completely disabled when NumLK is on. The numpad mostly acts only as a numpad with no FN key response.

Sure looks like this behavior is somehow related to accomodating an external keyboard/numpad.

Jack E/NJ

aphanic

I'm afraid not, it's a faulty/incomplete implementation of the Fn key functionality. Even the multimedia keys (secondary option of the directional arrows) remain as directional arrows when the BIOS setting is set to "Media Key" instead of "Function Key" (of no consequence for me, since I always have the BIOS setting set as Function Key).

You had posted that screenshot before, but you're obviating the line right above the one you highlight: "If an external keyboard/keypad is present:"

Anything that follows that line, i.e. the bullet points, applies given that condition, which is not met: the laptop is being used as is with no external keyboard or keypad attached.

The result is what I've been reporting all along, because of the bug if NumLock is on (doesn't matter the BIOS setting it seems) there's no key for Home, End, PgUp and PgDown (the others don't respond either, but there are equivalent keys elsewhere in the keyboard). And I'm also afraid it's nothing we can fix ourselves, we have no access to the code that handles that since it lies in the firmware itself.

Using any kind of low level hook in Windows is useless because the Fn key doesn't register any keystroke since it's not handled by the OS, so programatically we can't detect an combination of key presses that involve the Fn key.

Only Acer would be capable of fixing this in a subsequent BIOS release, whenever that may be, but I don't know how to get in touch with them or the appropriate team to notify them

JackE

Yep, realize you're not using an external KB. Since I'm only an  user just like you, not an employee, my workaround for Home would be to quickly hit NumLK off. Hit 7. Hit NumLk on.  Yes a bit inconvenient for me than just FN+7. But due to the close proximity of the NumLK & Numpad keys it could probably become almost second nature to me and maybe even faster with my right thumb & index finger without even looking. Accordingly, I think I could live with it. If this is a big inconvenience for you, I suggest that you request a firmware tweak via a PM to one of the forum moderators who are ACER employees/contractors. They may have more sway in running your request up the flagpole than me. But they too can't guarantee such a request will happen anytime soon if ever. Sorry. Jack E/NJ

aphanic

JackE said:

Yep, realize you're not using an external KB. Since I'm only an  user just like you, not an employee, my workaround for Home would be to quickly hit NumLK off. Hit 7. Hit NumLk on.  Yes a bit inconvenient for me than just FN+7. But due to the close proximity of the NumLK & Numpad keys it could probably become almost second nature to me and maybe even faster with my right thumb & index finger without even looking. Accordingly, I think I could live with it. If this is a big inconvenience for you, I suggest that you request a firmware tweak via a PM to one of the forum moderators who are ACER employees/contractors. They may have more sway in running your request up the flagpole than me. But they too can't guarantee such a request will happen anytime soon if ever. Sorry. Jack E/NJ

Thank you for your time and for everything nonetheless, it's people like you who keep the community going

amelillo

Hello everyone. To me the problem is another: if NumLock is OFF, pressing "1" results in "Home".
Well, when typing and editing, pressing Shift+Home should result in selecting all the text from the current position to the end of the line
Instead all I get is typing "1" as if NumLock was ON !!!
So, to quickly select a whole line without using the touchpad all I can do is using Ctrl+Right multiple times, that's annoying.
Is there a fix to this behaviour?

JackE

amelillo

Here's how they're supposed to work. Jack E/NJ

__NAME__

Same problem here as amelillo.
Just got my Acer Extensa today and I am already disappointed with this design flaw.

JackE

__NAME__

Immediately return the system to the vendor/seller as not meeting your needs for a refund or exchange before the seller's returns policy period expires. Usually only a few weeks. Jack E/NJ

debski

I couldn't figure this out on my new Aspire 515. After reading this whole thread I did discover that when my numlock was on, I could use the shift key on the number pad for (numlock on-shift 1) went to end of line. This worked on all the number key pads!! It was very frustrating to go space by space using the arrow keys on regular part of keyboard. I am now very happy with my new Acer aspire computer!!