X35 flickering(Acer X35 monitor)

SilentMarket

Lyker said:

So let me get all this correct before I decide or not to return my monitor.

"Scanline issue" (snow village):

Can potentially be fixed by firmware update.

"flicker issue" (Black draw latency):

Simply how VA works and a limitation of the technology that cannot be fixed

Any other issue I am missing?

Deep down they are all LCD pixel inversion. When it is more intense, human eyes see "the scanline".  When it is less intense, you may only see "the flickering". 

The X35 VA panel has high contrast to meet the HDR1000. Pixel transition is deeper. Response time is slower. 
To artificially improve response time, the monitor uses Overdrive, rises transition voltage, makes the monitor faster, but introduces worse pixel inversion. 

It is the nature of the VA panel, it cannot be fixed. You simply need new panel specs, which means a new product. 

Now here are the issues you don't want to miss later: some workarounds are available. 
1. Disqualify X35 HDR1000 from VESA certification. Less quantum dot color emits. Less high contrast, faster response time, less overdrive, less pixel inversion.
2. Disqualify 2ms G2G response time. Same high contrast, Less overdrive, even slower response time. 

Then you get either an HDR600 monitor, a washed-out monitor or a slower monitor. It might just use the 2nd option, which most people don't care about, even less are using 200Hz.

How you feel about this monitor depends on how intense the "scanline" or "flickering" will cause a warranty. If it bothers much, you can still have the monitor RMA'd or return it.  

qwertyuiopgfg

SilentMarket said:

Lyker said:

So let me get all this correct before I decide or not to return my monitor.

"Scanline issue" (snow village):

Can potentially be fixed by firmware update.

"flicker issue" (Black draw latency):

Simply how VA works and a limitation of the technology that cannot be fixed

Any other issue I am missing?

Deep down they are all LCD pixel inversion. When it is more intense, human eyes see "the scanline".  When it is less intense, you may only see "the flickering". 

The X35 VA panel has high contrast to meet the HDR1000. Pixel transition is deeper. Response time is slower. 
To artificially improve response time, the monitor uses Overdrive, rises transition voltage, makes the monitor faster, but introduces worse pixel inversion. 

It is the nature of the VA panel, it cannot be fixed. You simply need new panel specs, which means a new product. 

Now here are the issues you don't want to miss later: some workarounds are available. 
1. Disqualify X35 HDR1000 from VESA certification. Less quantum dot color emits. Less high contrast, faster response time, less overdrive, less pixel inversion.
2. Disqualify 2ms G2G response time. Same high contrast, Less overdrive, even slower response time. 

Then you get either an HDR600 monitor, a washed-out monitor or a slower monitor. It might just use the 2nd option, which most people don't care about, even less are using 200Hz.

How you feel about this monitor depends on how intense the "scanline" or "flickering" will cause a warranty. If it bothers much, you can still have the monitor RMA'd or return it.  

Maybe I am missing something, but how would overdrive cause scanlines on a static image? On certain spreadsheets, I get uniform vertical RGB scanlines across the entire monitor. I don't see how this would be caused by overdrive since the pixels are not changing.

qwertyuiopgfg

OSD OFF ABOVE




OSD ON ABOVE "scan lines" are removed

SilentMarket

qwertyuiopgfg said:

SilentMarket said:

Lyker said:

So let me get all this correct before I decide or not to return my monitor.

"Scanline issue" (snow village):

Can potentially be fixed by firmware update.

"flicker issue" (Black draw latency):

Simply how VA works and a limitation of the technology that cannot be fixed

Any other issue I am missing?

Deep down they are all LCD pixel inversion. When it is more intense, human eyes see "the scanline".  When it is less intense, you may only see "the flickering". 

The X35 VA panel has high contrast to meet the HDR1000. Pixel transition is deeper. Response time is slower. 
To artificially improve response time, the monitor uses Overdrive, rises transition voltage, makes the monitor faster, but introduces worse pixel inversion. 

It is the nature of the VA panel, it cannot be fixed. You simply need new panel specs, which means a new product. 

Now here are the issues you don't want to miss later: some workarounds are available. 
1. Disqualify X35 HDR1000 from VESA certification. Less quantum dot color emits. Less high contrast, faster response time, less overdrive, less pixel inversion.
2. Disqualify 2ms G2G response time. Same high contrast, Less overdrive, even slower response time. 

Then you get either an HDR600 monitor, a washed-out monitor or a slower monitor. It might just use the 2nd option, which most people don't care about, even less are using 200Hz.

How you feel about this monitor depends on how intense the "scanline" or "flickering" will cause a warranty. If it bothers much, you can still have the monitor RMA'd or return it.  

Maybe I am missing something, but how would overdrive cause scanlines on a static image? On certain spreadsheets, I get uniform vertical RGB scanlines across the entire monitor. I don't see how this would be caused by overdrive since the pixels are not changing.

It is about voltage. 
The LCD monitor doesn't consider a human-eye perceived image as static output because the monitor is constantly refreshing itself.  
With each refresh buffer the monitor updates, the voltage changes from positive to negative for each pixel. 
Overdrive uses higher voltages. And higher voltage shifts are less perfect. They are not the same each time. 
Even when the overdrive is off, the voltages are hardly the same. 
Unfortunately for this VA panel, this effect is more intense.

HAL_9000

@SilentMarket
is it possible to drive the black pixels with a different overdrive pulse than the brighter ones ? (maybe in a future driver/firmware update)
i believe this would potentially solve the slow response times of the black transitions, but would require a lot of extra processing. 

SilentMarket

@HAL_9000
I don't think so. Regulating voltage is hard. VA panel pixel transition to black takes longer because of high contrast. Improve response time means even more voltage. And the voltages are irregular enough.
The 2nd workaround might work for most people.  Lower the voltage. Get rid of the flicker. But Response time gets even slower.

qwertyuiopgfg

SilentMarket said:

qwertyuiopgfg said:

SilentMarket said:

Lyker said:

So let me get all this correct before I decide or not to return my monitor.

"Scanline issue" (snow village):

Can potentially be fixed by firmware update.

"flicker issue" (Black draw latency):

Simply how VA works and a limitation of the technology that cannot be fixed

Any other issue I am missing?

Deep down they are all LCD pixel inversion. When it is more intense, human eyes see "the scanline".  When it is less intense, you may only see "the flickering". 

The X35 VA panel has high contrast to meet the HDR1000. Pixel transition is deeper. Response time is slower. 
To artificially improve response time, the monitor uses Overdrive, rises transition voltage, makes the monitor faster, but introduces worse pixel inversion. 

It is the nature of the VA panel, it cannot be fixed. You simply need new panel specs, which means a new product. 

Now here are the issues you don't want to miss later: some workarounds are available. 
1. Disqualify X35 HDR1000 from VESA certification. Less quantum dot color emits. Less high contrast, faster response time, less overdrive, less pixel inversion.
2. Disqualify 2ms G2G response time. Same high contrast, Less overdrive, even slower response time. 

Then you get either an HDR600 monitor, a washed-out monitor or a slower monitor. It might just use the 2nd option, which most people don't care about, even less are using 200Hz.

How you feel about this monitor depends on how intense the "scanline" or "flickering" will cause a warranty. If it bothers much, you can still have the monitor RMA'd or return it.  

Maybe I am missing something, but how would overdrive cause scanlines on a static image? On certain spreadsheets, I get uniform vertical RGB scanlines across the entire monitor. I don't see how this would be caused by overdrive since the pixels are not changing.

It is about voltage. 
The LCD monitor doesn't consider a human-eye perceived image as static output because the monitor is constantly refreshing itself.  
With each refresh buffer the monitor updates, the voltage changes from positive to negative for each pixel. 
Overdrive uses higher voltages. And higher voltage shifts are less perfect. They are not the same each time. 
Even when the overdrive is off, the voltages are hardly the same. 
Unfortunately for this VA panel, this effect is more intense.

So what I believe you are describing is polarity inversion not overdrive. TN, IPS, VA panels all can all maintain a pixel's brightness between frames. Voltage changing from positive to negative is polarity inversion and it is a way to keep the panel from damaging itself. There is no need to do this otherwise. A think about it, in an ideal world, we would not be able to tell the difference between the positive and negative voltages because they have the same amount of power. HOWEVER, if a monitor is poorly calibrated, it can alternate between 2 voltages that have a different absolute value. This is what I believe the issue is. I understand fixing this will do nothing to change the black response time, nor do I care. I am fairly happy with the overall image quality - the flickering. 

qwertyuiopgfg

As to why I believe that this issue is fixable by a firmware update:

1. The flickering issue inexplicitly disappears when the OSD is active.
2. There is a precedent for flicker being fixed in VA monitors: 
https://www.reddit.com/r/ultrawidemasterrace/comments/6d0fmj/aoc_agon_ag352ucg_flicker_issuefixed_thanks_nvidia/

SilentMarket

@qwertyuiopgfg
Yes, a part of the issue is polarity inversion. Another part is crosstalk. I call them pixel inversion in general. 
You forget adjacent pixels are charged with the opposite voltage so that the flicker is largely reduced for human eyes when displaying normal images. 
Regulating voltage is hard enough to make this design. But LCD flicker doesn't rule out the interlaced images. 

It requires displaying certain interlaced patterns to trigger the flicker. Even without overdrive, the flicker can happen as long as the voltage is irregular. 

When OSD is opened, It destroyed the image patten, the flicker is gone. This is what I think. 

Gsync can cause flicker, it is not this case. The display driver doesn't control the panel's voltage.

qwertyuiopgfg

SilentMarket said:

@qwertyuiopgfg
Yes, a part of the issue is polarity inversion. Another part is crosstalk. I call them pixel inversion in general. 
You forget adjacent pixels are charged with the opposite voltage so that the flicker is largely reduced for human eyes when displaying normal images. 
Regulating voltage is hard enough to make this design. But LCD flicker doesn't rule out the interlaced images. 

It requires displaying certain interlaced patterns to trigger the flicker. Even without overdrive, the flicker can happen as long as the voltage is irregular. 

When OSD is opened, It destroyed the image patten, the flicker is gone. This is what I think. 

Gsync can cause flicker, it is not this case. The display driver doesn't control the panel's voltage.

Actually this might be the issue:
 From Nvidia's webpage
"G-SYNC’s variable overdrive eliminates ghosting artifacts by predicting the next frame and adjusting the parameters of the LCD overdrive."

Does anyone know anything about this or how it works? I am thinking that maybe the flickering is a dual-issue:
1. The VA panel technology might exaggerate any flicking, which is why most of the flickering gsync panels are VA.
2. The FPGA is not properly tuned to work around the VA limitation. 

Keyword there, FPGA, meaning that they can reprogram the silicon. Which explains how they fixed the AG352UCG.


My friends, 
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Rage, rage against the flicker of the light

SilentMarket

qwertyuiopgfg said:

SilentMarket said:

@qwertyuiopgfg
Yes, a part of the issue is polarity inversion. Another part is crosstalk. I call them pixel inversion in general. 
You forget adjacent pixels are charged with the opposite voltage so that the flicker is largely reduced for human eyes when displaying normal images. 
Regulating voltage is hard enough to make this design. But LCD flicker doesn't rule out the interlaced images. 

It requires displaying certain interlaced patterns to trigger the flicker. Even without overdrive, the flicker can happen as long as the voltage is irregular. 

When OSD is opened, It destroyed the image patten, the flicker is gone. This is what I think. 

Gsync can cause flicker, it is not this case. The display driver doesn't control the panel's voltage.

Actually this might be the issue:
 From Nvidia's webpage
"G-SYNC’s variable overdrive eliminates ghosting artifacts by predicting the next frame and adjusting the parameters of the LCD overdrive."

Does anyone know anything about this or how it works? I am thinking that maybe the flickering is a dual-issue:
1. The VA panel technology might exaggerate any flicking, which is why most of the flickering gsync panels are VA.
2. The FPGA is not properly tuned to work around the VA limitation. 

Keyword there, FPGA, meaning that they can reprogram the silicon. Which explains how they fixed the AG352UCG.


My friends, 
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Rage, rage against the flicker of the light

G-sync is meant for a different case. Variable overdrive is introduced in the beginning when G-sync is announced. 
When the frame rate changes, they found out the chip needs to tweak to the panel's overdrive setting when the next frame is coming so that the pixel inversion is less visible compared to a fixed fresh rate.
In other words, the panel with variable fresh rates have more visible pixel inversion. And variable overdrive is just a countermeasure.

This is why I said "the display driver doesn't control the panel's voltage" (with fixed fresh rate). Because in this case, when the flicker is reproduced the frame rates don't change. It doesn't matter G-sync is on or not. The issue is back to the panel itself.

qwertyuiopgfg

SilentMarket said:

qwertyuiopgfg said:

SilentMarket said:

Lyker said:

So let me get all this correct before I decide or not to return my monitor.

"Scanline issue" (snow village):

Can potentially be fixed by firmware update.

"flicker issue" (Black draw latency):

Simply how VA works and a limitation of the technology that cannot be fixed

Any other issue I am missing?

Deep down they are all LCD pixel inversion. When it is more intense, human eyes see "the scanline".  When it is less intense, you may only see "the flickering". 

The X35 VA panel has high contrast to meet the HDR1000. Pixel transition is deeper. Response time is slower. 
To artificially improve response time, the monitor uses Overdrive, rises transition voltage, makes the monitor faster, but introduces worse pixel inversion. 

It is the nature of the VA panel, it cannot be fixed. You simply need new panel specs, which means a new product. 

Now here are the issues you don't want to miss later: some workarounds are available. 
1. Disqualify X35 HDR1000 from VESA certification. Less quantum dot color emits. Less high contrast, faster response time, less overdrive, less pixel inversion.
2. Disqualify 2ms G2G response time. Same high contrast, Less overdrive, even slower response time. 

Then you get either an HDR600 monitor, a washed-out monitor or a slower monitor. It might just use the 2nd option, which most people don't care about, even less are using 200Hz.

How you feel about this monitor depends on how intense the "scanline" or "flickering" will cause a warranty. If it bothers much, you can still have the monitor RMA'd or return it.  

Maybe I am missing something, but how would overdrive cause scanlines on a static image? On certain spreadsheets, I get uniform vertical RGB scanlines across the entire monitor. I don't see how this would be caused by overdrive since the pixels are not changing.

It is about voltage. 
The LCD monitor doesn't consider a human-eye perceived image as static output because the monitor is constantly refreshing itself.  
With each refresh buffer the monitor updates, the voltage changes from positive to negative for each pixel. 
Overdrive uses higher voltages. And higher voltage shifts are less perfect. They are not the same each time. 
Even when the overdrive is off, the voltages are hardly the same. 
Unfortunately for this VA panel, this effect is more intense.

So what I believe you are describing is polarity inversion not overdrive. TN, IPS, VA panels all can all maintain a pixel's brightness between frames. Voltage changing from positive to negative is polarity inversion and it is a way to keep the panel from damaging itself. There is no need to do this otherwise. A think about it, in an ideal world, we would not be able to tell the difference between the positive and negative voltages because they have the same amount of power. HOWEVER, if a monitor is poorly calibrated, it can alternate between 2 voltages that have a different absolute value. This is what I believe the issue is. I understand fixing this will do nothing to change the black response time, nor do I care. I am fairly happy with the overall image quality - the flickering. 

qwertyuiopgfg

SilentMarket said:

qwertyuiopgfg said:

SilentMarket said:

Lyker said:

So let me get all this correct before I decide or not to return my monitor.

"Scanline issue" (snow village):

Can potentially be fixed by firmware update.

"flicker issue" (Black draw latency):

Simply how VA works and a limitation of the technology that cannot be fixed

Any other issue I am missing?

Deep down they are all LCD pixel inversion. When it is more intense, human eyes see "the scanline".  When it is less intense, you may only see "the flickering". 

The X35 VA panel has high contrast to meet the HDR1000. Pixel transition is deeper. Response time is slower. 
To artificially improve response time, the monitor uses Overdrive, rises transition voltage, makes the monitor faster, but introduces worse pixel inversion. 

It is the nature of the VA panel, it cannot be fixed. You simply need new panel specs, which means a new product. 

Now here are the issues you don't want to miss later: some workarounds are available. 
1. Disqualify X35 HDR1000 from VESA certification. Less quantum dot color emits. Less high contrast, faster response time, less overdrive, less pixel inversion.
2. Disqualify 2ms G2G response time. Same high contrast, Less overdrive, even slower response time. 

Then you get either an HDR600 monitor, a washed-out monitor or a slower monitor. It might just use the 2nd option, which most people don't care about, even less are using 200Hz.

How you feel about this monitor depends on how intense the "scanline" or "flickering" will cause a warranty. If it bothers much, you can still have the monitor RMA'd or return it.  

Maybe I am missing something, but how would overdrive cause scanlines on a static image? On certain spreadsheets, I get uniform vertical RGB scanlines across the entire monitor. I don't see how this would be caused by overdrive since the pixels are not changing.

It is about voltage. 
The LCD monitor doesn't consider a human-eye perceived image as static output because the monitor is constantly refreshing itself.  
With each refresh buffer the monitor updates, the voltage changes from positive to negative for each pixel. 
Overdrive uses higher voltages. And higher voltage shifts are less perfect. They are not the same each time. 
Even when the overdrive is off, the voltages are hardly the same. 
Unfortunately for this VA panel, this effect is more intense.

So what I believe you are describing is polarity inversion not overdrive. TN, IPS, VA panels all can all maintain a pixel's brightness between frames. Voltage changing from positive to negative is polarity inversion and it is a way to keep the panel from damaging itself. There is no need to do this otherwise. A think about it, in an ideal world, we would not be able to tell the difference between the positive and negative voltages because they have the same amount of power. HOWEVER, if a monitor is poorly calibrated, it can alternate between 2 voltages that have a different absolute value. This is what I believe the issue is. I understand fixing this will do nothing to change the black response time, nor do I care. I am fairly happy with the overall image quality - the flickering. 

antych

I got X35 this week from amazon uk. Same issue with flickering and vertical lines. I thought fan noise will be a problem, but I can't hear it. Would be a nice monitor without the artefacts, but I'll send it back. 

Delta_Payne

Can you tell us the production date?

Enterprise12

I have been looking at this monitor, but between the price and all the problems, im probably going to get the Samsung CRG90 I wish it could go over 100Hz with 10 bit color, but otherwise i think its nearly just as good as these with half the price

antych

Delta_Payne said:

Can you tell us the production date?

The label says Made in China Jul 2019

thedemoncowboy

so Is it even worth it 

Lyker

I returned my X35 ready to buy something else.
Looks like my eyes require a IPS panel. (Any suggestions?)

The black levels being behind really made the screen "flicker" and was really noticable and jarring for me.
The scanlines I did not notice much at all.

spoonermcgee

Hi guys, wanted to come back and follow up with my experience since my last post. I returned my x35 to Microcenter a couple weeks ago and set my x34p back up. I thought I would mind it to some degree losing the increased contrast, but honestly I felt relief immediately once I saw my old, reliable IPS panel and colors. I might be more sensitive than others, but I could see scanlines frequently with any type of movement on my x35 and it was extremely distracting. I ended up ordering an LG C9 OLED tv instead for my new gaming screen and upon arrival and through weeks of use it is jaw dropping how much better of an experience a new OLED tv is compared to these enthusiast level monitors.

Also, considering the price as well, I was able to get the C9 through Rakuten new for $1179 - a absolute steal in comparison to the x35. If you guys haven't seen, Nvidia also added G-SYNC support for the C9, E9, and B9 tv's and it is truly amazing. I have nothing bad to say about the tv after using it for three weeks, it has been flawless visually. Of course, burn-in is a worry and means this technology isn't for everyone if you have others using your monitors leaving static images there for hours. But if you are disappointed with the current state of high-end monitors you should try an OLED out, my experience has been amazing and the x35 comes across as a very upsetting joke in comparison. I am sorry if anyone has become stuck with that monitor, I hope they are able to make fixes through firmware.