Helios 500 no turbo boost?

M4rdock

Hi, so i ordered Helios 500, but ill be waiting for about 2 weeks until it ships.
There is one thing that bothers me - i read two reviews of this model, on nbc and laptop media.
In both reviews it was mentioned that Helios 500 never used turbo boost- in case of unit with i7-8750h cores remained at 2.7ghz clock Speed (which is much lover than promised 4.1 ghz)
And in case of unit with i9 8950h it was supposed to reach 4.3 ghz but not only it stayed on 2.7ghz but after intense usage it throthled to 2.2ghz.

This is way lower than its supposed to be on both units.
Is this some Acer feature or what? In both reviews cpu were quite cold(50-60c) so There shouldnt be any throttling.
Or were those some early-review units?
Does anyone have this laptop and can check how it looks on retail units or can explain to me what does it means?
Does Helios 500 has turned off turbo boost?

Skelomorph

M4rdock said:

Hi Skelo and thank you for your answer.
But by turbo i mean Intel turbo boost technology not Acer turbo option.

http://laptopmedia.com/review/acer-predator-helios-500-review-a-monsterbook-featuring-intel-core-i9-8950hk/
There - in temperature section reviewer says that it doesnt use turbo boost and clock stayed at 2.9ghz and later throthled to 2.4 ghz.

In nbc review of Helios 500 in temp section reviewer also says that clock remained at 2.7ghz Speed. 

And from The looks of it, it was core speed without Intel turbo boost.

Sorry for bad formatting on my post, im typing from my Phone and have some problems with posting on forum.

No Problem. If this is the case for the consumer models, then it is faulty in some way (they kinda mention this as well as theirs is a test sample).

It SHOULD use turbo. It comes with turbo, and IDK why it did not use it. 

There is one thing I noticed here, and it is that he didn't mention any type of troubleshooting for it. In the support page, there are drivers for the Intel CPU and Turbo. This might of fixed it. Let me see what I can find out.

Skelo

Skelomorph

M4rdock said:

Yeah, now only solution is to wait for something official from Acer or someone who has this laptop.
If it comes to worst ill just try it myslef and return it if there really are problems with performance. 

According to Acer, only pre-production/sample models of the Helios 500 were available at that date, not the consumer grade laptops. That being said, any type of benchmarking is inaccurate due to many differences.

Skelo

M4rdock

Ok i got mine Helios 500 and tested it.
Everything looks fine, turbo boost definetly works.
No problems with performance, in passmark i got about 2% less than average 8750h, but i think thats in margin of an error IMO, and graphics card got about 16% more (LOL) than average 1070.

Definetly false alarm from reviewers.
Very nice laptop and quite silent.

Btw. build quality is quite good, so i dont know why reviewers were complaining.

Skelomorph

According to the review here: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-Predator-Helios-500-GTX-1070-i7-8750H-Laptop-Review.308084.0.html, While playing Witcher 3 turbo was being used.

Can you please share what reviews show the turbo not being used. You must remember, all 6 cores will not run at 4.2GHz. The i7-8750H when using 6 cores has a max turbo of 3.9, and when a single core is being used 4.2GHz.

skelo

M4rdock

Hi Skelo and thank you for your answer.
But by turbo i mean Intel turbo boost technology not Acer turbo option.

http://laptopmedia.com/review/acer-predator-helios-500-review-a-monsterbook-featuring-intel-core-i9-8950hk/
There - in temperature section reviewer says that it doesnt use turbo boost and clock stayed at 2.9ghz and later throthled to 2.4 ghz.

In nbc review of Helios 500 in temp section reviewer also says that clock remained at 2.7ghz Speed. 

And from The looks of it, it was core speed without Intel turbo boost.

Sorry for bad formatting on my post, im typing from my Phone and have some problems with posting on forum.

Skelomorph

M4rdock said:

Hi Skelo and thank you for your answer.
But by turbo i mean Intel turbo boost technology not Acer turbo option.

http://laptopmedia.com/review/acer-predator-helios-500-review-a-monsterbook-featuring-intel-core-i9-8950hk/
There - in temperature section reviewer says that it doesnt use turbo boost and clock stayed at 2.9ghz and later throthled to 2.4 ghz.

In nbc review of Helios 500 in temp section reviewer also says that clock remained at 2.7ghz Speed. 

And from The looks of it, it was core speed without Intel turbo boost.

Sorry for bad formatting on my post, im typing from my Phone and have some problems with posting on forum.

No Problem. If this is the case for the consumer models, then it is faulty in some way (they kinda mention this as well as theirs is a test sample).

It SHOULD use turbo. It comes with turbo, and IDK why it did not use it. 

There is one thing I noticed here, and it is that he didn't mention any type of troubleshooting for it. In the support page, there are drivers for the Intel CPU and Turbo. This might of fixed it. Let me see what I can find out.

Skelo

M4rdock

Skelomorph said:

M4rdock said:

Hi Skelo and thank you for your answer.
But by turbo i mean Intel turbo boost technology not Acer turbo option.

http://laptopmedia.com/review/acer-predator-helios-500-review-a-monsterbook-featuring-intel-core-i9-8950hk/
There - in temperature section reviewer says that it doesnt use turbo boost and clock stayed at 2.9ghz and later throthled to 2.4 ghz.

In nbc review of Helios 500 in temp section reviewer also says that clock remained at 2.7ghz Speed. 

And from The looks of it, it was core speed without Intel turbo boost.

Sorry for bad formatting on my post, im typing from my Phone and have some problems with posting on forum.

No Problem. If this is the case for the consumer models, then it is faulty in some way (they kinda mention this as well as theirs is a test sample).

It SHOULD use turbo. It comes with turbo, and IDK why it did not use it. 

There is one thing I noticed here, and it is that he didn't mention any type of troubleshooting for it. In the support page, there are drivers for the Intel CPU and Turbo. This might of fixed it. Let me see what I can find out.

Skelo

Thanks!
This model looks best of all in its price range and I really want to have it, but after reading about lack of turbo boost i became worried.
Would be awesome if you could dig something out or have some official comment from Acer about this issue.

Skelomorph

M4rdock said:

Skelomorph said:

M4rdock said:

Hi Skelo and thank you for your answer.
But by turbo i mean Intel turbo boost technology not Acer turbo option.

http://laptopmedia.com/review/acer-predator-helios-500-review-a-monsterbook-featuring-intel-core-i9-8950hk/
There - in temperature section reviewer says that it doesnt use turbo boost and clock stayed at 2.9ghz and later throthled to 2.4 ghz.

In nbc review of Helios 500 in temp section reviewer also says that clock remained at 2.7ghz Speed. 

And from The looks of it, it was core speed without Intel turbo boost.

Sorry for bad formatting on my post, im typing from my Phone and have some problems with posting on forum.

No Problem. If this is the case for the consumer models, then it is faulty in some way (they kinda mention this as well as theirs is a test sample).

It SHOULD use turbo. It comes with turbo, and IDK why it did not use it. 

There is one thing I noticed here, and it is that he didn't mention any type of troubleshooting for it. In the support page, there are drivers for the Intel CPU and Turbo. This might of fixed it. Let me see what I can find out.

Skelo

Thanks!
This model looks best of all in its price range and I really want to have it, but after reading about lack of turbo boost i became worried.
Would be awesome if you could dig something out or have some official comment from Acer about this issue.

I already contacted Acer about it. Will let you know if I get an answer.

Skelo

Queen6

I have read the same, nor is the Helios 5oo alone in this behaviour.  There's the possibility of the test notebooks being engineering samples, although this is generally made clear.  Secondly thermal design, if the notebooks with 8750H and 8950HK etc. do not have the thermal headroom or adequate powertrain the CPU's will not reach their full potential, nor may they be designed too.

Throttling is the chip's inability to maintain base frequency under full load, majority of notebooks with the new H series hex core CPU's will hold base frequency, equally all barring a few extreme heavyweights can hold full Turbo indefinitely.  The 8th Gen H series CPU's are the same lithography as the 7th Gen CPU's with additional cores.  Intel reduced base frequency to maintain a 45W TDP and significantly boosted Turbo clocks to increase performance, net result is the new CPU's are far more power hungry under full Turbo.

A well set up notebook with a 7700HQ the CPU will not exceed 45W power draw under full load, the 8750H can pull as much as 90W, therefore more robust cooling solutions and powertrains are required.  If not in place the CPU may never reach full Turbo and certainly not be capable of maintaining it.  My own notebook with 8750H CPU exhibits similar behaviour, although it can reach full Turbo on all cores of 3.9GHz, it will roll back to 3.6GHz under sustained heavy load which is reasonable as it's not a heavyweight.  It may possible for the CPU to hold maximum frequency indefinitely, equally it would also mean significantly increasing the manufactures PL-1 power limit which may not be prudent, given the near double power budget for a small increment in performance.

The Notebookcheck review of the Helios 500 mirrors the same with the 8750H rolling back performance under sustained load, initially scoring 1007CB under Cinebench R15, subsequently rolling back to score of 930CB.  MSI's new GE73 8RF Raider with 8750H reacts the same initially scoring 1163CB, subsequently reducing to 1030CB.  Same repeats for majority of notebooks with the new hex core CPU's, with a fair level of variance. 

TLDR: Reduction of Turbo frequency under sustained heavy load is a normal function of the vast majority of 8th Gen H series notebooks, with variance between manufacturers to be expected.

Q-6

M4rdock

Queen6 this shouldnt be The case.

First - H500 shouldnt throthle - cpu never went higher than 70c in reviews so There shouldnt be any throttling. If this was intended then Acer is just cheating and Helios 500 is bad, overpriced laptop with bad cooling system - and it was advertised as being superior in that regard.

Second - i had msi laptop for one week before returning it - it was overheating like crazy and had problems with freezes. But ge73 is cheaper than h500 so i thought it was understendeable.
Now you said that ge73 with same procesor is more efficient than Acer unit. 
This shouldnt be The case (again ge73 has bad cooling system) if this holds true then Acer is just performing A fraud with its predator 500.

Third - you said that your laptop goes down to 3.3ghz, well Helios 500 stays at 2.7ghz with same processor, even thought cpu temperature on turbo was just 70c. It should go much higher.

Queen6

Your confusing thermal & power throttling, systems are rolling back due to CPU the power load, not the CPU temperature.  At full load my S7BS8750 will hold up to up to 3.5GHz/3.6GHz on all cores with a Core temp in the region of 70C, it's not rolling back frequency due to temperature, rather more power consumption with PL-1 being set to 45W and PL-2 90W. the latter being the short term Turbo limit with the notebook pulling as much as 86W

If you read the reviews for the notebooks with 8750H CPU at notebookcheck.net you will see they all have the same tendency with some simply performing better than others.  Aero 15X performs one of the best under sustained load as I believe it's PL-1 power limit is 52W, equally as a trade-off it also runs hotter, uncomfortably so.

The manufacturers may very well be following Intel's guidelines for the 8750H etc. given how all the notebooks are behaving under sustained load.  There's also a lot of other factors that we are unable to directly monitor on a notebook such as the load and temperature of the VRM's.  What is clear is that performance is reducing for all. Although the notebooks are reducing performance it should be clearly understood that the 8750H remains to be impressively performant, far more so than the older 7700HQ...

Q-6

M4rdock

Multicore? Yes.
Singlecore? Not so much.

But it still doesnt explain why its cores Run so low in Helios 500, when its clocks arent even close to desired boost.

Whats even worse Helios500 is one of worst in its category cpu wise.

Your rog strix is quite Portable, weights much less than h500 so its normal that cpu is hot, but in Acer case feels like its not even trying. There is big difference between 3.5 and 2.7ghz. Bigger laptop with (supposedly) better cooling system shouldnt be falling behind that much.

Queen6

Very much depends on how the manufacturer set up the notebook, also some CPU's are just better silicon.  What I infer is the Helios 500 in question is hitting both PL-1 & PL-2 power limits with resultant reduction in frequency to rein in the CPU's power consumption or it could be the VRM's are thermal throttling.  The notebook may very well benefit from the CPU being undervolted, again will depend on the silicon.

The ROG Strix during a three hour stability under OCCT CPU (Large Dataset) CPU temperature remained in the region of 70C with the occasional spike due to system activity ambient temperature being 25C, equally the notebook has three 12V fans to keep the i7 8750H & GTX 1070 cool.

Strix's Cinebench R15 Single Core is basically the same as the Helios 500 and in line with the rest of the i7 8750H notebooks, it's the heavy multicore loads that really illustrates any difference in performance. 

Q-6

M4rdock

Yeah, now only solution is to wait for something official from Acer or someone who has this laptop.
If it comes to worst ill just try it myslef and return it if there really are problems with performance. 

Queen6

M4rdock said:

Yeah, now only solution is to wait for something official from Acer or someone who has this laptop.
If it comes to worst ill just try it myslef and return it if there really are problems with performance. 

I don't see as lacking performance, as none of i7 8750H notebooks can hold full Turbo indefinitely, +/- 100CB on Cinebench R15 is likely just a variable.  My own Strix was just faster out the box (benchmark) than the review model.  Only one of the MSI Titans (with two power supplies) and one of the Aurous notebooks could hold max frequency on the i9 8950HK, equally they are massive beasts with equally massive pricing, nor can they hold OC without some issue.

I'd wait and see how the Helios 500 performs, if your buying it for gaming the CPU performance will be inconsequential as it has more than enough.  You can always look at the HWbot XTU database and see how the Helios performs in comparison to other  i7 8750H notebooks.  With HWbot you can look at multitude of benchmarks and data including Cinebench R15, just use the extended search.

Q-6

Skelomorph

M4rdock said:

Yeah, now only solution is to wait for something official from Acer or someone who has this laptop.
If it comes to worst ill just try it myslef and return it if there really are problems with performance. 

According to Acer, only pre-production/sample models of the Helios 500 were available at that date, not the consumer grade laptops. That being said, any type of benchmarking is inaccurate due to many differences.

Skelo

Queen6

M4rdock said:

Yeah, now only solution is to wait for something official from Acer or someone who has this laptop.
If it comes to worst ill just try it myslef and return it if there really are problems with performance. 

I also have a Predator 17 (7700HQ, 32Gb, GTX 1070) the tradeoff with the Strix (8750H, 32Gb, GTX 1070) is fan noise, I strongly suspect the Predator Helios 500 will be equally quiet as Predator 17 which may be more a priority for Acer and afforded by the larger chassis.

The ROG Strix is more difficult to set up an undervolt as it has a Silent mode which reduces CPU performance with observable reduction in CPU Core & Cache voltage.  This i7 8750H CPU will undervolt as much as -155mV with no apparent issue (so far), however only with Balanced & Overboost profiles, Silent -140mV is the maximum stable undervolt.  For the sake of stability and continuity I've opted for the latter, with realistically no difference in performance.

Q-6

Rares95

That's what you get for buying Intel lol!

Wait for the AMD version...

M4rdock

Thanks Skelo!
Thats at least some light in The tunel. Now ive got to wait to try it myself.

@Q-6 ill use hwbot to check myself if there are no better alternatives lol

Rares while not fan of Intel myself, this Time its all  on Acer.

Queen6

Rares95 said:

That's what you get for buying Intel lol!

Wait for the AMD version...

That's going to be a very interesting notebook with the 8-core Ryzen 7 2700 and Radeon Vega 56 graphics, likely the model I'd opt for, given a Cinebench score of over 1500...

Q-6

Queen6

Skelomorph said:

M4rdock said:

Yeah, now only solution is to wait for something official from Acer or someone who has this laptop.
If it comes to worst ill just try it myslef and return it if there really are problems with performance. 

According to Acer, only pre-production/sample models of the Helios 500 were available at that date, not the consumer grade laptops. That being said, any type of benchmarking is inaccurate due to many differences.

Skelo

Very much agree as there are a tremendous amount of variables and the benchmark results need to be understood in the context of the test not as absolutes.  In all fairness the Helios 500 is highly likely to be very performant and like the Predator 17 one of quietest notebooks under full load, which for some matters.

Q-6

M4rdock

Ok i got mine Helios 500 and tested it.
Everything looks fine, turbo boost definetly works.
No problems with performance, in passmark i got about 2% less than average 8750h, but i think thats in margin of an error IMO, and graphics card got about 16% more (LOL) than average 1070.

Definetly false alarm from reviewers.
Very nice laptop and quite silent.

Btw. build quality is quite good, so i dont know why reviewers were complaining.

Queen6

Good to hear   I didn't think the performance would be lacking as the Helios 500 has plenty of thermal headroom.  One of the things I like best about the bigger Predator notebooks is their quietness of operation.  My Asus S7BS8750  (GL703GS) is more portable, equally the trade of is the 12V fans for the cooling system are much louder when the notebook is in maximum performance mode (100% CPU & GPU overclocked) needing to spin faster & harder to maintain good temps

Q-6